About 30 people met for three hours on IRC (and some by phone) to share their knowledge of OLPC deployments in Peru, Oceania, Austria, Birmingham, Boston, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Paraguay, Colombia, and India (first half) and to improve the processes they use for sharing their knowledge (second half).
Please enjoy the edited minutes provided below and please share the relevant sections with your friends, translating as needed.
Finally, please do not hesitate to join us in future meetings if you'd like to contribute to similar discussions.
ebtihaj> hello m_stone> shall we start roll-call in, say, 3 minutes? cjl> finds seat in back of room. greebo> hi all greebo> hooray, meeting #2, we'll start in about 5 mins
m_stone> greebo: do we have anything agenda-like? greebo> m_stone, we always have the running agenda: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_meetings m_stone> greebo: maybe you'd like to add that to the /topic then? greebo> sure
greebo> CanoeBerry, heya, thanks for the email out about this, nice work :)
cjl> m_stone: So who runs a meeting bot that could be invited? m_stone> cjl: beats me; as you can see, I prefer hand-edited notes. marcopg> cjl: dogi runs the olpc-meeting one I think greebo> m_stone, yeah, I'm with you cjl> Well, if m_stone is volunteering to take notes, they come out much better than a bot transcript :-)
greebo> ok, shall we start with introductions? If everyone could please put their real name, country they're working on, email addy (which will be in the notes for people to find you if they are interested), and a bit about your projects, that'd be a great start
m_stone> well, as before, I'm Michael Stone. I'm a recovering OLPC addict... you can still reach me at firstname.lastname@example.org. I'm not really affiliated with any specific deployments. I just want to keep pushing this snowball until it keeps rolling on its own. greebo> I'm Pia Waugh, working on deployments in Australia and Oceania, email@example.com, and we have a load of small projects happening in Australia for pilots, as well as about 5000 laptops being deployed in Oceania which I'm providing some support to, but which is being run by Ian Thomson from SPC cjb> Chris Ball, OLPC, cjb at laptop, primarily interested in improving deployment autonomy. nubae> dont think Christoph is around... lots of studying... but him and I were recently at the Austrian deployment.... firstname.lastname@example.org anna_bham> I'm Anna Schoolfield with the Birmingham, AL, deployment. We have 15K XOs out in the field as of last week. My email address is email@example.com isforinsects> I am Seth Woodworth, firstname.lastname@example.org, I am involved in the Boston (cambridge) pilot school, and work @olpc mp_colombia> hi all, i'm a volunteer named pilar saenz. mail: email@example.com. I had work with shakira's pilots in Colombia. dsd_> i have just started working on the deployment in paraguay. dsd@laptop sverma> Sameer Verma from San Francisco State University, San Francisco, California, USA. Working with two pilots: August Town, Jamaica and Hyderabad, India Also part of OLPC-SF and OLPC-SF XO Repair Center. Information Systems Professor by day, and OLPC/XO/Sugar enthusiast by night :-) firstname.lastname@example.org cjl> trouble-maker, trouble-shooter, ne'er-do-well, support gang volunteer bjordan> hi all, I'm Brian Jordan, email@example.com, have worked / will be working on the deployment in Rwanda wadeb|w> hi. I'm Wade Brainerd, activity author and newbie SugarLabs ActivityTeam coordinator :) rgs_> Raul from Paraguay (firstname.lastname@example.org) unmadindu> hello, this is Sayamindu, who works for OLPC's language support, and also sometimes does whatever else that is required (email@example.com) kevix> I'm a Kevin Mark, a friend of Anna at the Birmingham deployment marcopg> Marco Pesenti Gritti firstname.lastname@example.org SugarLabs DevelopmentTeam coordinator dirakx> from sugar's deployment team ;) email: email@example.com rita> I'm Rita Freudenberg from Squeakland Foundaiton, firstname.lastname@example.org. I'm interested in use of Etoys in deployments. dfarning> David Farning email@example.com A upstream Sugar Labs Guy. I want to figure out how to take your feedback and help our team turn it into an awesome learning platform :) anil_> latecomer: anil, firstname.lastname@example.org, plan to spend some time at the khairat deployment in india on my visit in march/april. and nepal, if possible greebo> awesome, we have some excellent deployments represented already, and some great projects!
CanoeBerry__> Hi, starting call now! Hernan will join by phone. From Peru. Kiko too, leading the community repair ctr in Lima. Caryl on the phone.. greebo> CanoeBerry, call? I was only going to do this by irc to make it easier :) cjb> how is the phone link working? is someone translating into Spanish for Hernan or something? CanoeBerry__> SJ will speak in Spanish on the call. CanoeBerry__> Will call Hernan Pachas in ~2 min, please join 866-213-2185 Access Code: -------- to join to voice part of this call! greebo> CanoeBerry, do you think the grassroots mailing list would make the most sense for followup conversations about deployments? greebo> CanoeBerry, I'd rather have the call be irc based if you don't mind, makes it easier to include this many people CanoeBerry__> Hernan asked to be on the phone. greebo> CanoeBerry, phone calls are great for less people, but we want as miuch participation as possible m_stone> greebo: let's chat about phones after today's meeting. mp_colombia> cjb: i can to translate for hpachas if it's necesary cjb> I agree with greebo -- we should discourage anyone who can use IRC from using the phone bridge.
m_stone> so, just in case you didn't see them, we have minutes from our last meeting: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_meetings/20090120. minutes from today's meeting will go up at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_meetings/20090127 once I write them. so let's get down to business. first, thanks to everyone who has come today! greebo> I'm going to suggest we jump into general Q&A, anyone have specific burning questions about their deployment they need help with?
dirakx> m_stone: thanks to you and greebo for organizing this. :) greebo> dirakx, np, it is something I also need as a person doing deployments :) Hopefully it'll make it easier for all of us :)
nubae> have u guys ever considred using gobby, so that documents can be shown/worked on? m_stone> nubae: let's talk about it along with the phone-bridge stuff afterwards.
CanoeBerry__> Hernan & Kiko have requested to go first. Calling Hernan.. cjb> greebo, CanoeBerry__: so, who's actually running the meeting? :) greebo> CanoeBerry, are you cool for me to facilitate?
cjb> anna_bham: would you be willing to talk a little about your deployment later on? I'd be really interested to hear how it's working out. anna_bham> cjb, ok, as much as I know so far. I'm kinda insulated from the day-to-day stuff, but I do have a couple issues I can report on
CanoeBerry__> Hernan's on the phonr with ~8 of us. m_stone> CanoeBerry__: and there are ~30 people here. CanoeBerry__> Spanish on the phone... m_stone> CanoeBerry__: we can talk about how to use the phone for the next meeting, but we're not going to try it now. greebo> CanoeBerry, a spanish irc bot may help with this :) but yeah, later _bjordan> sj's espanol is unparalleled m_stone> also, spanish is fine here, I think. (if you haven't learned it yet, you may as well start now. :) greebo> m_stone, I speak chinese, but not spanish I'm afraid ;) greebo> CanoeBerry, so please encourage those who can irc to join irc (I've got instructions for those who haven't used it before on the wiki page) and we'll discuss best paths for this after this meeting nubae> Yo tambien hablo español perfectamente si alguien necesita traducciones CanoeBerry__> aside: Kiko introducing himself and Lima's repair center to Hernan & all on the phone.
_sj_> yikes; I think we should merge #olpc-groups with this chan. m_stone> _sj_: bring it up after the meeting, along with the proposed phone & gobby amendments _sj_> m_stone, what are gobby amendments? _sj_> can someone put a gobby link in the topic? m_stone> _sj_: let's talk after the meeting.
greebo> is everyone deploying 767 atm? anna_bham> we're on 714 for now.
dsd_> can i jump in with a question? i'd like to ask which deployments are using XS? greebo> dsd_, we're using xs on all our deployments anna_bham> I have a test XS in one school, but it's used primarily for internet access
Max School Size?
dsd_> greebo: whats the max school size, approximately? greebo> dsd_, well, my largest so far is about 300 kids. the bottleneck isn't the xs, it doesn't really do a lot of work, so it can scale alright in my experience, the bottleneck it the networking infrastructure. we have about 10 wireless access points serving that school dsd_> greebo: ah.. please elaborate :) greebo> dsd_, we had lots of wireless access points, but the jabber service on the xs seems to deal reasonably well. Problem is I wasn't at that site particularly long so I couldn't follow it up particularly well. I saw it working only up to about 100. Apparently more than about that you need multiple XS servers to deal with the traffic nubae> greebo: hmmm, it should be able to deal with much more than 100 greebo> nubae, I'm not saying it didn't work with more, I'm saying I only saw 100 online, but I wasn't there when te rest were deplyed greebo> we've had no complaints from the deployment, and others were there for a week following, so I'm pretty confident one server was hosting at least 200 laptops simultanesouly nubae> greebo: I'd imagine ram is the main factor there greebo> nubae, yeah, our server with the 200-300 kids had a gig ram
dsd_> greebo: how well does collaboration work on an XS with hundres of kids connected? marcopg> dsd_: would be surprised if it works at all ;) dsd_> greebo: i cant imagine seeing 200 XOs on a neighborhood view.. can you? or maybe they arent really using collab? greebo> dsd_, no, we had a lot of laptops in the neighbourhood :) marcopg> greebo: do you have any idea on how much you are able to scale up *with* an XS? greebo> marcopg, there is some documentation on the wiki around that, let me find the link, it was helpful to me greebo> marcopg, I haven't tried multiple xs's, but that is recommended for large numbers
nubae> has anyone here tried using a virtualised XS server... ie virtual image? anna_bham> nubae, networking can a PITA on the XS to begin with without doing it in a virtual environment. I wouldn't want to even mess with that. greebo> nubae, hmm, virtualising xs, haven't tried that, but that is a great idea nubae> in the west, the option is of course interesting so that it can stay on all the time
greebo> we are using typical hardware in some places, and are trialling a new hardware platform for remote/hot/dustry locations - http://pipka.org/blog/2008/12/11/evaluating-an-ebox-4863-for-olpc-xs-server/
mp_colombia> some one is using xs for xo activation? greebo> none of our laptops are activated to start, mp_colombia can you talk more about activation, and how you are working with it? mp_colombia> we need to know about others experiences. we have some problems with activations. mp_colombia> greebo: some xo lost their manufacturation tag and we can't update those without a developer key greebo> mp_colombia, eww, why don't you get the developer keys then? mp_colombia> greebo: we get the UUID and ask for the developed key
cjb> greebo: did you want them to arrive unactivated, or is that an annoyance? anna_bham> All our XOs came preactivated. I don't recall that we were given an alternative. greebo> cjb, I didn't know anything about activation and retrospectively am glad mine weren't activated as it would have been an extra hassle. Having said that we'll need that feature for some future deployments cjb> greebo: ah, terminology confusion dsd_> greebo: you mean yours WERE activated :) and did not need activation cjb> "not activated" == "will refuse to turn on" cjb> "activated" == "don't need special magic done to them before they will turn on"
Peru repair centers
_sj_> kiko is talking on the phone about contributing to the project _sj_> and what his lab is doing _sj_> hernan is talking about pedagogical work in peru and deployment _sj_> kiko: wants to get out broken laptops to work on a repair center CanoeBerry__> Kiko's been unable to join irc -- he's (on phone) describing his repair center project. _sj_> have engineers and 2-3 developers. want to know what to expect for repair in peru CanoeBerry__> Very active Lima community space, meeting in person tomorrow evening.. CanoeBerry__> Lima space rented out for 3 yrs, being renovated, for electronics jamming etc, incl developing/testing XO's & hosting interested ppl around Lima. Exciting!
_sj_> asking hernan if community repair centers could be useful _sj_> hpachas : I think perhaps yes. it would help us to have local ways to deal with this. perhaps one person who is fairly far from cities _sj_> to work with cities? a peruvian group. so yes, it would be useful for repair. but there are also issues regarding going into the field and finding out why things break, &c
_sj_> kiko: leaving the question of this aera, I'm aftually more interested in areas of learning... working with children as investigators _sj_> kiko: conversations about repair are part of discussing what is necessary to contribute _sj_> say with working on systems... _sj_> (getting people in local regions to help out) _sj_> we are motivated to do this professionally, and perhaps find ways to collaborate; _sj_> hernan :the qustion is economic... we really do wan tto support this kind of engagement _sj_> but haqving people work with a familiar face... it's a matter of communication _sj_> motivating people... there are lots of people who would like to do this or get a small job doing this
CanoeBerry__> hpachas topic: "how to pull off a successful community center" w/ assoc economic & communications problems among ppl already part of the community CanoeBerry__> Kiko summarizing hpachas's thoughts, re: hpachas's concerns on sustainability of voluteers. _sj_> kiko : notes he is worried about how contsant volunteers can be... this can be confusing and difficult _sj_> for the local gropus. kiko agrees. but thinks there are still many people interested in longer term work. so, try to make use of this interest. _sj_> [both]: it would be nice to arrange a network of volunteers who can travel around, helping repair machings dirakx> CanoeBerry__: tell hpachas that the official government deployment can help and take advantage of the community reparation centers.. _sj_> a call for volunteers for repair could be a good start. economic concerns -- it's also something to disuss _sj_> but if its volunteering, covering costs will be less than paying professionals _sj_> kiko: if they are motivated, results may be better. but we have to be sure not to confuse things more. greebo> CanoeBerry__, volunteers is definitely another discussion we need to have, how many people are dealing with volunteers?
cjb> CanoeBerry__: I guess it seems like it would be nice for this to end up written down, since it isn't being heard by most people here. greebo> cjb, heh
_sj_> adam : some stats on repair centers worldwide _sj_> 6 have been successful. so there's a possibility for a local community model. _sj_> keep in touch with those 6 _sj_> luke, ian, french and dutch repair centers... _sj_> use this in peru or othe3r places and it will be great greebo> we are looking at starting up an oceania repair centre
m_stone> _sj_: could the people on the phone agree to prepare an addendum to the minutes that I can include? m_stone> _sj_: I'd like their voices to be represented, but they /have/ to be represented in writing, for today. _sj_> m_stone, for people primarily on the call, your voices /have/ to be transferred via voice, for now
Etoys in Peru?
rita> _sj_: do they use etoys in peru? _sj_> rita: I'm asking hernan _sj_> you might talk to someone in charge of pedagogy... hpachas can point you in the right direction. greebo> _sj_, I think you are hitting an interesting point. I think pedagogical discussions should potentially happen with educators, and maybe maybe in the Sugar Labs arena. I think deployment meetups should potentiall be the people on the ground putting the tech in place to provide peer support and to help encourage and develop best practices for deployments. What do others think? marcopg> greebo: make sense to me dirakx> greebo: +1
nubae> greebo: how was u're experience with mesh collab? nubae> fo us it breaks down after just 10 laptops nubae> we have to use ejabberd to make it work properly cjb> nubae: that sounds correct greebo> nubae, yeah, I found collaboration breaks down at about 15 or 20, and we needed an xs for anymore than that
_sj_> on call : bjordan is leaving for rwanda in the next few weeks, for 2-3 months cjb> bjordan: cool!
SG + Textbooks
_sj_> sj : working on getting teachers and classes involved in textbook reuse and reading-list creation w/the internet archive over the next month _sj_> danbennett: heading to Nigeria over the spring to work with a school _sj_> adam: working with the 100+ people on the support gang, for olpc support _sj_> and on a restructured contributors program to better represent different countries, get people moving faster o nsmall projects around the world _sj_> (with ed & sj)
Management tools + PM
nubae> here in Austria, we had a 6 hour sessions with educators asking us for some essential things that might be for the UI itself... namely a administration or monitoring option for the activties like a teachers view something like what gcompris has although it doesnt exist in the XO version of course wadeb|w> nubae: are the requests written somewhere? they should be sent to email@example.com anna_bham> nubae, the closest thing I've come to an "administrator's view" is joining sugar chat with pidgin as the admin user nubae> wadeb|w: Î've just finished writing up a report on it all, and Ill post it to iaep nubae> but just the monitoring thing seems to be all encompassing so thoought Id mention it wadeb|w> nubae: great, the dev community needs to hear that wadeb|w> nubae: apple's school deployments have a feature where the teacher can simultaneously watch all screens in the class. there is a linux program that does similarly but unknown if it works on xo greebo> nubae, yeah, we've been thinking about this too, I think that should be on the server (the moniroting solution) greebo> nubae, because the server has all the journals backed up on it daily, so it could be the browse, search and moniroting interface to what all the kids are doing nubae> well, we have something called Italc in ltsp but there is no reason it cannot be used for xos too nubae> http://italc.sourceforge.net/
greebo> wadeb|w, we'll be collating feature requests from the deployment meetings on our wishlist and then sending to the SL and OLPC developer community lists nubae> yeah they need to work at their own pace was one of the main issues the teachers said, and then of course keep track of their progress nubae> but I'll talk about the rest via the iaep post
greebo> wadeb|w, there is a vnc viewer for the xo now, so you could easily join a childs screen wadeb|w> greebo: agreed, might be possible to wrap it in an Classroom activity as well (Ok class, eveyone join the Mrs B's Math Class activity) nubae> yeah italc needs to go on a server area.... and the vnc connection works in the clients, but the main thing is, there needs to be a teachers view
m_stone> greebo: well, either way, it seems clear that monitoring is a heretofor undiscussed need in several deployments. m_stone> greebo: so we could do everyone a favor by, e.g., getting a nice requirements doc written up.
kevix> with mention of monitoring students and italc, I always wondered why OLPC never got skoelinux/debian-edu/edubuntu involved greebo> kevix, yeah, totally _sj_> kevix; it wasn't for lack of trying... maybe we didn't do it in the right way? _sj_> we had 10+ skolelinux folks working with A-test boards or B1s early on
greebo> kevix, I'd love to take the olpc specific bits of xs and integrate into a skoleserver, for those who haven't seen the skoleserver project, they have an awesome foss based school system greebo> http://www.skolelinux.org/ greebo> m_stone, yes :) nubae> we also have edubuntu.org ;-) greebo> nubae, yes :) kevix> greebo: I was also interested in their work with schools/teacher/administrtor like with OLPC is doing
m_stone> dsd_: is your question about "who uses XSen, how many, w/ how many laptops" satisfactorily answered? m_stone> or is more data needed? dsd_> m_stone: i guess.. i think the answer is that not many places actually use XS.. and the XO can somehow cope with hundreds of neighbors on the server dsd_> i'm not clear on the details, but i don't think anyone here is greebo> dsd_, how are they doing it without an xs? who here is doing this?
nubae> all one needs is an ejabberd server nubae> XS is not always necessary greebo> nubae, true, but the additional features are _really_ important marcopg> nubae: backups are important for example dirakx> nubae: but what about security and activation issues ? nubae> I guess I'm comparing western setups, where we already have filters, proxies, and firewalls
dsd_> greebo: XS is optional. you can provide internet to XOs with any standard network.
greebo> the backup feature on the xs (all clients backup their datastore daily) is important both for backup, and because teachers can browse the childresn journals for safety and oversight reasons marcopg> greebo: are teacher actually using that feature? nice to know! greebo> marcopg, yeah, it was a really important bit actually, teachers are concerned about cyberbullying and inappropriate use of the laptops, so that transparency is vital greebo> and children know that there is transparency into what they do which encourages more responsible use of the laptops greebo> also, the idmgr has been really useful, I register all known laptops when I deploy, then turn off the idmgr service, this means while at school all the kids are talking through the server, but if $badperson parks outside the school with an xo they can't commnuicate with the kids
dsd_> greebo: its a nice feature, but you can imagine how deployments can exist without it.. greebo> dsd_, yeah, but I wouldn't do a rollout without an xs, the features it provides are really important in all the rollouts I've done
cjb> Uruguay isn't using backups at the moment cjb> they actually don't want to because they think it would increase their support costs cjb> if I understood them correctly m_stone> cjb: that was my understanding as well. greebo> cjb, really? m_stone> greebo: yes, there are two difficulties: cjb> greebo: in short, at the moment their support center gets no phone calls saying "hey, help me restore my files", because everyone knows this is not possible
m_stone> greebo: also, their hardware is underpowered for the job. they don't have enough disk space for all of the laptops they'd have to support. greebo> cjb, understand, backups means xs and means more hdd capacity required greebo> m_stone, how is their hardware underpowered? m_stone> greebo: they don't have enough disk space for a full backup from each laptop. greebo> m_stone, right m_stone> (in many other ways, their hardware is excellent though)
greebo> m_stone, they could simply change the backup scripts to only backup weekly, and to overwrite backups monthly or something, there are ways to get around the hardware limitations. HDD's are cheap cjb> greebo: they don't have enough disk space for *one* copy of each laptop. cjb> so it wouldn't matter what the cycle time was. but interestingly, the support cost thing also seemed to be a big deal for them. greebo> cjb, I totally understand the support overhead, but it is only the datastore of each laptop, so 100 laptops would likely only be ~50GB, that is a small hd cjb> greebo: they have small hds and large schools :) I think they're more worried about the support overhead than the technical stuff, though, which surprised me.
dsd_> greebo: i'm with you.. but it really seems like there are not many users dsd_> i posted to the server-devel list asking for user stories dsd_> got no response dsd_> nothing... m_stone> dsd_: maybe the people who use xs-en don't read server-devel? dsd_> m_stone: maybe.. any suggestions where i should write instead? m_stone> dsd_: evidently, here. :)
dsd_> m_stone: well i asked here and hear that it is used in AU + area, and 1 school in bham anna_bham> I'd like to see an XS in all the schools, but there was so much political pressure to get the XOs out to the kids NOW that we didn't have time for the wireless infrastructure
dsd_> however nobody has solid details m_stone> dsd_: sure, but it's better than what you had before. we'll keep poking at it and eventually, we'll find more solid info. dsd_> m_stone: ok, great dsd_> m_stone: we are planning to deploy XS here, so maybe we will become providers of that too ;) m_stone> dsd_: exactly. :) dsd_> m_stone: i dont think anyone here knows.. at least nobody has answered :)
nubae> u can replicate most of the XS features on a regular server, be it Fedora, Ubuntu, or Debian nubae> but yes the XS is a nice out of the box solution greebo> nubae, yeah, I want to build an ubuntu xs, but have stuck with the normal one to date. marcopg> nubae: I totally agree that it should be possible to install these services on other distros/setups nubae> greebo: then we should talk, as I'd love to do the same, and we are working on the edubuntu server side nubae> I'm working on main inclusion report for ejabberd so it gets carried in main greebo> nubae, awesome! will chat to you about edubuntu foo later then greebo> nubae, perhaps a subproject for the deployer sig? :) nubae> greebo: yup, nice
marcopg> nubae: but it's also nice to have the out-of-the-box solution, I guess nubae> marcopg: yes nubae> edubuntu of course also wants sugar on its CD as soon as possible, but its far from working
dsd_> anyone from UY here? or anyone knowledgable about how they implement their lease security? dsd_> m_stone: for the minutes, perhaps: i would like to find out more about uruguay's security implementation.. i hear that they wirlessly provide leases over an AP? how? XO does not support that, do they modify the initramfs or something
cjb> dsd_: they have their own security system cjb> dsd_: it's based on their own upgrade system, which involves sending shell scripts to be run to the XOs dsd_> cjb: so they dont even use the same lease system?
m_stone> dsd_: there are two bits to it. m_stone> dsd_: they use two lease systems in parallel. m_stone> dsd_: they assume that the XS is located at the default route and poll it for gpg-signed messages once a day or so. m_stone> dsd_: essentially via a cron-job.
dsd_> alright.. dsd_> and if no XS is there, in what ways does it cripple the system? m_stone> dsd_: when they want to disable a laptop, they remove _our_ activation lease.
dsd_> m_stone: and how does that lease get put back? dsd_> assuming it was removed in error.. i.e. kid was ill for a week? m_stone> dsd_: /if I recall correctly/, by shipping the locked machine back to a repair facility. dsd_> ah, wow
cjb> m_stone: I think their lease time is quite high, though dsd_> so if a kid is ill for a week, laptop isnt dead m_stone> sure. if it has the /security/lease.sig lease, then they may just refuse to boot until it finds their XS.
dsd_> (i'm asking this from the perspective of possibly implementing something equivalent in PY) m_stone> dsd_: if you want to implement some of this stuff or PY, we should talk more afterward. m_stone> dsd_: the irfs is pretty much all ready to go for this. I'll show you where.
m_stone> dsd_: you can find the code.... m_stone> http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=projects/ceibal-scripts;a=tree m_stone> that's the basic idea. m_stone> dsd_: poke emiliano for a link to newer stuff. m_stone> (and come back if you have trouble) dsd_> m_stone: lets talk more about this (perhaps with cjb too) another time dsd_> thanks for the info, that answers a lot of questions
PE Contact info
rita> _sj_: can you get the email address from hpachas for me? hpachas> rita, hernan . pachas at gmail . com
greebo> hey all, I have an idea which would help heaps with both security management, and with configuration management. Puppet! We could put a Puppet client on the XO, and then when rolled out the local XS would push out the config changes automatically, as well as any security information automatically greebo> it saves us all trying to write hundreds of scripts, as I'm sure we've all been doing :) nubae> yah puppet is cool, but not easy to setup nubae> takes serious time greebo> nubae, if we can get a good base setup configuration and publish it, and bundle it, life gets simple nubae> greebo: yeah, true, its a one time job and then distribute
CanoeBerry__> phone excerpt: dbennett summarizing Nigeria's project being attacked from all angles, community/infrastructure/building- security progression since last week... CanoeBerry__> dbennett summarizing Muslim countries being more secure (generally no theft) but this doesn't apply in Nigeria :| CanoeBerry__> dbennett struggling with email/phone communications to Nigeria, email being too fragile for building relationships CanoeBerry__> dbennett will revert to phone to nurture Nigerian relationships. CanoeBerry__> anticipating early/mid-April trip to Nigeria CanoeBerry__> greebo: dbennett has been twice, but the culture is not built around email etc. So he's working the phones. greebo> CanoeBerry__, I think there are many countries which you just have to just get there to start. Oceania is similar, many islands you get 0 communications until you get there, so you have to be prepared for the worst case deployment scenario (and take all your own gear) just in case :) CanoeBerry__> dbennett hoping to post some of his Nigerian deployment photos on his blog. CanoeBerry__> FYI: for funding, dbennett working with 2 different Danish Missionary groups (1 Lutheran, the other an NGO)
greebo> ok, next on the agenda, (although I'm sure we could chat like this for hours!), we want to briefly look at ideas to help better support deployments, how we might better support each other greebo> my main ideas are - deployment meetups (like this), constant updating of the dpeloyment guide (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_Guide), discussions on the grassroots mailing list, the wishlist for technical features we need greebo> what else would be useful?
cjb> a few minutes from each deployer would be great, IMO, about how they're doing and what's been hardest and what they most need help with cjb> I wonder if we might also build a list of people willing to travel to deployments to problem-solve, either for-pay or for- room-and-board and a list of deployments seeking such help?
dsd_> i volunteer to talk for 2 mins about paraguay? dsd_> we are working in 10 schools in 1 city dsd_> ~3500 kids dsd_> power is good (being installed by govt) dsd_> internet too dsd_> we expet to hand out laptops in about 1 months time dsd_> we are 50% through a 4 week teacher training program (150 teachers)
dsd_> biggest problems so far have been with niggly problems like touchpad recalibration failures greebo> dsd_, yeah nubae> heh, seems a common issue cjb> dsd_: still broken in 8.2.1? :/ dsd_> cjb: no, but 8.2.1 does not exist dsd_> ;) m_stone> hah.
greebo> I'm testing 8.2.1 at the moment (although I need it signed to put it in place, which is actually quite urgent now) cjb> (A small number of words on that: OLPC is releasing 8.2.1 within a few weeks.) cjb> greebo: signing tonight greebo> cjb, awesome! so I'll have a signed test candidate within a day? I'll test more and rollout for wider testing next week cjb> welcome. dsd_'s been doing a lot of work on 8.2.1 too, is very helpful. m_stone> (a second small word -- I'm scheduling some testing for this thursday @ 1cc to do some of the necessary wifi testing) m_stone> (so email me if you want to join in)
Reflashing is hard
dsd_> and planning for the flashing of 3500 laptops is a big deal.. so we need careful planning, nandblaster will really help,m etc greebo> dsd_, I think that is where puppet will help you a lot. If you install puppet on the xs, and puppet clients on the xos, then you can put the configuration and apps you want on the xs and it'll be pushed out to the clients greebo> much quicker than running scripts on each xo at install nubae> u can also use clonezilla if u want something more generic nubae> but puppet is much more customisable
nubae> greebo: so I read there are deployments on the oceanian islands... which ones are they and how many units more or less? greebo> nubae, all the details are here http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Oceania greebo> about 5 countries have deployments, with about 1400 laptops in place
marcopg> do we have a page in the wiki (or something similar) which links to the available deployment resources? greebo> marcopg, not yet, please create one and link from the deployment meetings page, and from the deployment guide marcopg> ok :) greebo> marcopg, actually, do you mind if I quickly do this? I'll link it to the deployment guide
marcopg> from a developer point of view I'd be particularly interested to read about their experience with the software etc marcopg> blog aggregration might help there too
nubae> one serious complaint by the teachers here was the activities page on the wiki marcopg> nubae: oh, what about them? nubae> well for one, many dont even exist... abcflower for example nubae> there's a nice little paragraph about it, but no where to be found... nubae> then a good 40% dont have lesson plans, so the teachers dont know what they are about nubae> or how to deploy them with the kids nubae> the exception are the mamamedia apps, which were very well received marcopg> nubae: mmm that's interesting. We are planning to use something like addons.mozilla.org for activity user pages greebo> nubae, ok, so one thing we need is for testing groups to be actually updating the activities page when they frind stuff that doesn't work, or perhaps just a way to easily flag activities as working or not :) nubae> we need a DB. a wiki doesnt work for this.... marcopg> nubae: but that doesn't really cover stuff like lesson plans marcopg> nubae: I would make sure wadeb|w knows about this :) marcopg> (not sure if he is following here right now) nubae> well, its all in my report about the Graz deployment, which u guys should get to the list tomorow wadeb|w> nubae: looking forward to it greebo> nubae, awesome
wadeb|w> nubae: yeah, we are working hard on getting an activity DB set up with reviews, tags, download links. it's based on the firefox extension website addons.mozilla.org but customized for sugar wadeb|w> nubae: we also appreciate help testing, we are trying to sift through the 100s of activities that have been started / written nubae> wadeb|w: ah great, that sounds perfect wadeb|w> nubae: we can use help btw categorizing and tracking down activities that exist. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus contains what we know so far. nubae> wadeb|w: yeah I've been spending time installing them all to see if they run on ubuntu. the conclusion was, and this was LTSP and SoaS, that only 50% of apps, or even less run on Ubuntu wadeb|w> not surprising; most activity authors have only ever worked on XO Software wadeb|w> nubae: awesome, if you don't mind please post that info to the wiki page I linked, it would be great to know what works already and what doesn't
m_stone> wadeb|w: I hope you can find some way to slip localized lesson plans into that. :) marcopg> wadeb|w: I wonder about stuff like documentation and lesson plans marcopg> wadeb|w: I guess we could always link out from a.m.o to the wiki wadeb|w> marcopg: yeah, personally I think lesson plans should be part of the .xo bundle and sugar should provide a ui to access them wadeb|w> marcopg: could be as simple as a toolbar button which launches browse on a static HTML file from the .xo marcopg> wadeb|w: yeah like the idea of having them in the .xo dsd_> wadeb|w: have you looked at xol bundles? dsd_> you seem to have just described them :) wadeb|w> dsd_: yes, but the sugar support for them is pretty weak right now.. seems like the general consensus is to fold .xol back -> .xo dsd_> wadeb|w: in what ways is it weak? wadeb|w> dsd_: mostly the library page in Browse. the ideal would be for content bundles to be first class entities in the home view, right next to activities dsd_> ok
nubae> ah... another thing that came up... is translation m_stone> nubae: what about it? nubae> is there an easy way for educators to do this
nubae> oh, and yet another question, now that I remember... they have coders they want to employ to help with the activities, but they are java people... I suggested jython, what do u think? m_stone> nubae: I think we should talk more seriously about shipping java, actually. at least finding out how big it is, for example. greebo> who else here would like java? we need it too... m_stone> greebo: it's certainly easy enough for us, e.g. to take 767 and rebuild it with java installed. dunno how big it will be, but it should be fairly easy to find out. nubae> so java wise... what would be the current recommendation if someone is going to start coding activities? m_stone> nubae: the current recommendation is that it's a bad idea since there are no deployments that ship java. (unless you can make gcj work?) nubae> ok, so using an intrepreter then, like pyjamas or jython? m_stone> nubae: no, the point is that nobody ships even a JVM, so jython isn't going to help you. nubae> oh
nubae> yeah unfortunately, it stopped us being able to deploy SoaS at the schools here m_stone> nubae: mmm? marcopg> nubae: the reason several activities doesn't work are the xo distro specific hacks we did marcopg> nubae: will take time to work all of them out... m_stone> marcopg: citation? nubae> ok marcopg> m_stone: patches to xulrunner and evince, for example marcopg> m_stone: and to csound m_stone> marcopg: I totally disagree with you on this. and I don't think we're going to be able to work it out. :) marcopg> m_stone: not sure to understand what you disagree about, but not relevant to this meeting I guess wadeb|w> m_stone: do you have an alternate theory about why activities don't work? or were you disagreeing able something else? m_stone> wadeb|w: let's talk about in #sugar in a few minutes wadeb|w> k
rita> dsd_: what are you doing in your teacher training? learning how to generally use the laptops or special activities? dsd_> rita: maybe rgs_ can answer.. i am new here and have not (yet) been in teacher training dsd_> rita: he is busy. perhaps we can talk about teacher training next week rita> dsd_: ah, thanks, can you give me his mail address? m_stone> rita: it's in the minutes. m_stone> Raul from Paraguay (firstname.lastname@example.org) greebo> dsd_, rita nubae please feel free to add teacher training to the running agenda on the deployment meeting page for next week, under "running agenda" rgs_> rita: we have lots of information in our Wiki, http://wiki.paraguayeduca.org ... I am trying to find the exact section on teacher training rita> rgs_: thank you! rita> rgs_: is this spanish or portuguese? dsd_> rita: spanish rita> rgs_: ok, i will find someone for translation
greebo> (same for everyone, please add stuff to the agenda to chat about) greebo> these early meetings will be a little bit more random while we find how we all want to use this forum for discussion
greebo> I'd like to create a page with contact details of people doing deployments and where greebo> would everyone here be happy for me to add their details publicly like this? just to make it easier for people to find us :) m_stone> greebo: I have some thoughts on that as well; may be able to help you with it. greebo> m_stone, cool, shall we chat after the meeting? m_stone> greebo: yes.
greebo> _sj_, could you ask the phone meeting whether a translation bot in irc would be ok for them to participate in irc meetings? _sj_> greebo, I will _sj_> they are all on irc now. hpachas, kiko : would a translation bot be handy? greebo> _sj_, thanks! we would also love you to be able to participate rather than the amazing translations you are having to fire back and forth atm
Wiki + mailing lists
greebo> could everyone please ensure they try to send updates both to grassroots, but also link stuff like this on the resorces page linked from deployment meetings which marcopg is going to set up :) greebo> the more good resources we can pull together, the better! greebo> also, documentation... greebo> I put up all the tech documentation, lesson plans and video interviews with teachers online here http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Australia's_first_deployment
greebo> hey all, I've created a resources page, please add your links to documentation, reports, etc there. nubae> oh, one place for putting up ideas is on brainstorm... but maybe thats too ubuntu specific: brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
greebo> also, great (and last) news for everyone. There is a gnash package coming out in feb by Rob Sayove (a living legend) which support all things flash, and is much better and faster than adobe flash. (I know some rollouts have had to deploy adobe flash.) dsd_> greebo: as in, a more functional version of gnash? we already have gnash on XOs m_stone> greebo: ooh, cool! cjb> greebo: that seems unlikely to me greebo> cjb, I spoke to rob at linux.conf.au, it's happening :) greebo> dsd_, the current gnash shipped on xos is old, and doesn't work correctly in many ways. It doesn't support swf files (more important than you'd think) or flash v9. greebo> current stable version unshipped with xos is better, but the feb release will be seriously faster than adobe, and support v9 dsd_> greebo: 8.2.0 ships the one-before-latest release. the latest doesnt have mujch relevance, as far as i can see but the rest of what you said sounds excellent. thanks for the update m_stone> so noted that getting something with a new gnash is really interesting to people. greebo> dsd_, a big one is the swf file support (aka the ability to play http://website.org/blah.swf), and the xo shipped version doesn't, but there are other issues too :) cjb> is this new gnash release available now? cjb> or coming later? m_stone> cjb: we could probably assist with testing betas as it comes out, even if it isn't ready now. greebo> cjb, yes, I'd suggest you email rob savoye directly, he's very responsive, and totally passionate about gnash and xo cjb> m_stone: I was actually asking for the purpose of release planning m_stone> cjb: I figured; I'm suggesting that our release planning would be better if we planned to help test things we care about.
wadeb|w> regarding gnash, I hope that a future sugar release will also contain a gnash-based direct launcher for SWF files
greebo> I think we should probably close the meeting, sticking to 1 hour will ensure we all don't be late for other stuff :) so, see you all next week! greebo> I think the channel should totally be a regular place for all of us to hang out, but meetings we'll keep to an hour :) m_stone> okay. anyone have any last words? m_stone> (remember, we still have a couple of proposed meeting amendmends coming up)
m_stone> okay. thanks everyone for coming! m_stone> if you feel like staying up, we'll have another meeting in about 8hrs and then again next week! greebo> m_stone, yes :) greebo> thanks everyone! awesome meeting dsd_> thanks nubae> indeed :-)
Meeting Structure I
m_stone> now, I think that a couple of us are going to stick around to discuss the proposed meeting amendments which were... greebo> m_stone and I will notate stuff over the next day, so keep an eye on the deployment meeting page for meeting notes
m_stone> a) gobby back-channel m_stone> b) phone channels m_stone> c) collecting blog urls m_stone> d) more generally, how to publish people's contact info
m_stone> did I miss any proposed amendments? greebo> e) "scope": what should these meetings cover?
kevix> hopefully everone in irc will come back greebo> kevix, here's hoping :)
marcopg> another meeting? greebo> marcopg, these meetings are weekly, started only last week :) marcopg> greebo: yeah was wondering about the other meeting in 8 hours m_stone mentioned ;) m_stone> marcopg: the meetings are also bimodal. greebo> marcopg, yeah, I'll still be at that one too, the idea of that one is to capture people who can't make this timezone, if it turns out to be unnecessary, I'll drop it marcopg> greebo: ah cool
_sj_> greebo, you said it, this will be a bit more chaotic than future events! greebo> _sj_, heh :)
Phone vs IRC
_sj_> I don't recommend phone channels as a primary source of discussion. more of a back channel _sj_> in contrast with s-g meetings where they are primary _sj_> but I have a personal bias for written text _sj_> please include more info in the irc chan _sj_> if this is the main discussion area _sj_> a chanbot can collect all url's mentioned cjb> _sj_: yet we were inserting the phone channel on top of the discussion in here, which makes it act as primary (and disrupt whatever else is being said). I guess I didn't like the phone idea much at all. and I think I have absolutely no written visibility into what happened in the phone one. if someone wants a personal transcription from IRC over phone, that's fine -- but what we ended up with was two separate meetings. _sj_> this is #olpc-deployments, not #olpc-meeting where there is intended to be a single meeting at one time and a reservable 'space' in some sense, at least afaiu cjb> _sj_: I think it's clear that what we just had was a "meeting" and not random chatter, though
_sj_> cjb: interrupting one conversaion with another is natural in irc channels dsd_> yeah the phone thing didnt work greebo> _sj_, yeah, if we can move the back channel to the same channel, that would be awesome :) streamlines the conversation so people and data can be accessible to all _sj_> it was natural when OLPC chans were busier as well _sj_> that happens a lot in irc too... _sj_> just saying. cjb> Anyway. I don't want to assert control over the meeting format, just letting people know that I think the phone bridge wasn't a good experience. _sj_> sure thing
_sj_> I don't mind sticking to irc. I think everyone can access it at the moment _sj_> if there comes a need to ad people woh can't use irc for some reason we can start a phone chan or revisit the matter _sj_> adam has the most luck with pone confs though so he may feel quite differently m_stone> CanoeBerry__: ^^ m_stone> _sj_: so would you feel comfortable with me reporting that we /don't/ have structured phone back channels in future meetings (unless amended at a later date)? _sj_> CanoeBerry__, what do you think? _sj_> adam says he would not consider not having phone meetings in parallel _sj_> the question is how to make it less disruptive _sj_> including asking people if they choose to join a phone dics. to also be on irc greebo> _sj_, how do you avoid the back channel. back channels are bad as you end up with communication loss. Can you ask CanoeBerry__ why he feels the phone back channel is vital? dfarning> greebo, might want to consider holding separate phone and irc meetings. The more the merrier! greebo> dfarning, yeah, but the problem isn't "more", it is how distributed everyone is. I'd prefer to not end up with half a dozen deployer meetups because then we end up back where we were, with noone finding anyone else greebo> dfarning, I think making one meeting phone, and one irc might work, but no one has brought up the benefit of phone for this kind of meeting :) In my experience once you get more than say 7 people, a phone meeting excludes people greebo> fine for accessibility, but as a default...
_sj_> m_stone, phones have their use. marcopg> unless there are strong reasons to do phone, I think we should stick to irc greebo> marcopg, +1 and I think a few others agree marcopg> so we can do irc for now and reevaluate if someone comes up with strong reasons ;) m_stone> greebo: CanoeBerry__ seems to disagree strongly. m_stone> (I obviously prefer irc.)
greebo> cjb, thanks for the feedback, the main question I think there is how we incorporate different languages. I think if people started multilanguages in the same channel, it'd be very hard to particpate, but a sister channel with a translation bot for each language would be awesome if feasible greebo> ok, what do people think about the translation bot idea? m_stone> greebo: I consider it orthogonal to phones.
nubae> isnt there a meeting bot? with someone sitting as chair? marcopg> nubae: nope m_stone> nubae: intentionally, no. nubae> its nice to go through a set of topics... and then have the bot conclude an action
greebo> also, everyone, please feel free to update the running agenda, to add stuff to the wishlist, to the resources page, and generally to our deployment sig :)( nubae> gobby is good for that; u have a nice outline that people can edit.
anna_bham> so what's the mechanism for suggesting topics? I'd like to hear about how others have dealt with administrators and school cultures and if y'all have experienced things moving at the speed of molasses m_stone> anna_bham: I'd love to talk about it after I get answers on the first five things. _bjordan> anna_bham: I think we add topics to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_meetings#Running_agenda anna_bham> _bjordan, thanks, I'll suggest that topic for a future meeting, if no one minds greebo> anna_bham, definitely! _bjordan> anna_bham: that'd be great, I'm sure people have a lot of experience with that sort of thing m_stone> anna_bham: writing things on the deployment-meetings wiki page is a good way for now. greebo> anna_bham, feel free to add to the page (or the grassroots mailing list) a starting point for the discussion. It might even be good to capture the experience in the deployment guide to help others deal with it. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployment_Guide/Deployment_Resources added. please add your resources. _bjordan> anna_bham: Bryan's "OLPC Startup" talk from XOcamp might be of interest to you: http://www.justin.tv/clip/004e4d553022eb90
anna_bham> Dealing with the complete lack of sense of urgency has been very frustrating and I'm looking forward to hearing how others handle it cjb> anna_bham: hm, urgency for what? anna_bham> cjb, communication, giving me requirements, getting a test XS out in the field, setting up wireless - pretty much anything vaguely technical
_sj_> greebo: to your point about pedagogical discussions -- I find it slightly harmful to separate them from deployment discussions. _sj_> every actual deployment I know of has tight integration between their classroom needs and their tech and on the ground and peer support needs _sj_> when they think of it that way _sj_> and when they don't, it is a sign that the educational needs are not being adequately met _sj_> not always, but a general sign... _sj_> "best practices for delpoyment" of a learning project hopefully can include projects that HAVE NO TECHNOLOGY. _sj_> if that is not the case, I probably don't need to be involved at all :-)
greebo> _sj_, I think that there are people in deployments who know tech (like me) who know nothing about pedagogy and so can't participate in the discussions so we'd have a split focus. I totally agree we should have meetings between different elements such as pedagogy and deployment, but this forum in my mind was to support the peple on the ground doing the tech,
_sj_> the conclusion was to have a written discussion about what would make for a successful repair center _sj_> and to separate that discussoin from all the other things a community 'center' could do greebo> I think if we bring pedagogy into the mix, we have a educator community who don't understand tech, and techs who don't understand pedagogy, and the meetings would be utter madness with outcomes hard to achieve :) _sj_> greebo : it's ok by me if you want to have ed-specific and tech- specific agendas _sj_> but I hope the same people would attend both. _sj_> which requires scope assessment as well _sj_> myt experience fo capital-e educator confs is that they talk about Technology a lot without knowing necc. how to hack it _sj_> and of tech-for-ed confs is that they talk about Education a lot without necc. having been in front of a classroom for a long time greebo> _sj_, last point, I'm working with educators on our trials, but I as a deployer need support from other techs :)
hpachas> _sj_, los temas de implementación pasan por 3 temas importantes hpachas> _sj_, logistico, técnico y pedagógico hpachas> pienso que se deben agendar reuniones en base a los tres grandes temas _sj_> hpachas, los tres!
_sj_> oh, right, logistics _sj_> hpachas, absolutamente. logistics is its own Field _sj_> as anyone who has every sat with hernan or fiorella can tell you... hpachas> _sj_, en la parte logistica, son muchos pasos que los demás paises deben entender como realizarlo hpachas> _sj_, ahora a eso tenemos que añadir: distribución, reparación, sustitución _sj_> hpachas, que es sustitucion? _sj_> support? hpachas> _sj_, sustitución = reemplazo de un equipo por otro _sj_> ah! interestante! hpachas> _sj_, son muchas cosas por las cuales nosotros ya hemos pasado y estamos pasando hpachas> _sj_, ahora en el tema técnico, es otro mundo paralelo hpachas> _sj_, localización, activación, etc, etc _sj_> hpachas, si, muchas muchas cosas importantes hpachas> _sj_, tenemos q recordar que la parte técnica va en los siguientes aspectos: XO, XS, AP, Swhti, Acceso a Internet _sj_> hpachas, puedes ayudar con los agendas de estos reuniones? _sj_> tienes el gran parte de experiencia con estos _sj_> temas, problemas, soluciones _sj_> y la compartmentacion entre temas diferentes y paraleles hpachas> _sj_, pienso que debemos hacer una evaluación de como se encuentran en estos mometnos todos los paises OLPC
_sj_> Swhti? hpachas> _sj_, quizas tener un site que diga el grado de avance de cada pais, ayudaría _sj_> hpachas, estos discusiones son para los escuelas y paises pequenos _sj_> solamente _sj_> pero hay paraleles _sj_> ah _sj_> el mapo con "el grado de avance" es muy viejo _sj_> mapa* _sj_> hmm hpachas> ese mapa debe ser interactivo, editable a través de internte _sj_> hpachas, voy a ver. si... _sj_> no tenemos cada uno _sj_> pere sera valable hpachas> _sj_, si colocamos el programa OLPC en linea de tiempo, diria q empieza por el tema logistico, técnico/pedagógico _sj_> si. wikitimeline es interesante para eso... _sj_> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EasyTimeline
Meeting Structure II
greebo> m_stone, I think we have a quieter irc channel, let;s talk :) greebo> m_stone, which is why I've asked CanoeBerry__ his reasons :) Not to be difficult, but given a good reason everything is flexible :) tonyforster> greebo, i'm in on this late, but skype conference (free) Vent (cheap) and Elluminate (not free) work fine greebo> tonyforster, yeah, they both work well for phone meetings, but considering we had 30+ people (and this is only meeting #2) we'll likely have irc as the primary meeting and people can do phones if they like. tonyforster this meeting is likely to mostly be technical or semi-technical people focused on the practical elements of doing and supporting deployments. we will be discussing te scope soon, and there is likely something similar needed just for educators, and we'll need communications between the meetings :)
m_stone> greebo: so, what I'd like to see is that /we/ hold our regular irc meetings as scheduled. m_stone> and people who like phones can use phones on their own time and come and present us with a transcript. greebo> m_stone, great idea, is everyone else happy with that? the deployment meetings be irc, and anyone wanting to do phone meetings (I'm sure the meeting might be a backchannel at the same time) greebo> but the main meeting is in irc and the backchannel should be transcribed and linked to the meetings page if possible marcopg> sounds good to me m_stone> it seems like a plausible way to start off.
m_stone> CanoeBerry__: I'm going to publish this decision in our minutes from today. you can bring it up again by mail or after next week's meeting if you feel it doesn't work for you.
m_stone> greebo: okay, now that we've got "phones" out of the way... next we've got "gobby" greebo> what does that _mean_? :) nubae> gobby is a great collaborative tool; the granddaddy of of them. its used by all the ubuntu devs during UDS and keeps everything quite structured and organised cjl> greebo: gobby = http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/ ...Not sure what the local OLPC gobby address is m_stone> cjl: pullcord.l.o, (usually)
kevix> its visually fun to watch folks edit with gobby nubae> kevix: yeah... :-) kinda like abiword
nubae> strange that wasnt ported to the xos actually m_stone> nubae: it's easy to install on XOs. cjb> nubae: yum install gobby
nubae> hmm,, but resolution, windows and all that fit? m_stone> nubae: it works fine so long as nobody types long lines. :) m_stone> (which happens all the time) nubae> heh m_stone> and so long as you don't need to see the chat and the gobby doc at the same time. m_stone> (which you always need to see) cjb> google docs would be a reasonable alternative
greebo> One thing I've been chatting to people about is the consolidation of tools
m_stone> cjl: anyhow, the basic premise is "use a shared writing system which permits editing as well as appending" m_stone> two other things commonly used for the same purpose are google docs and abiword. :) greebo> looks at gobby
greebo> silly question, why are we talking about gobby? sounds cool, but I just need the context m_stone> greebo: not silly at all. the basic reason is because it allows shared note-taking, which IRC isn't so good for. it's excellent for, e.g., writing shraed minutes as you go along. greebo> ah, ok nubae> yep... the way buntu devs use it, they have a strategy doc and people ammend it via gobby. works very well
m_stone> greebo: how useful it is depends a bit on what kind of minutes you want. it can also be hard to coordinate... greebo> right, well let's answer that question first :)
kevix> gobby has a chat facility, but dont know if its good enough m_stone> kevix: it's not. nubae> nah, normally its used alongside irc or even abiword
cjb> I think I'd just propose google docs, these days m_stone> cjb: we're still trying to decide whether we want any parallel channel at all.
greebo> my main aim with the minutes of the meetings is to ensure information goes where it is useful, so transfer into the wishlist, into the deployment guide, into the resources page greebo> unless people really put time into it, that is unlikely to happen automagically (unless you ask people throughout the meeting) greebo> I think once we add the overhead of thinking of notes, then the meeting may not be as smooth greebo> I'm happy to write up the notes each meeting, and move data around, I like documentation :)
m_stone> greebo: what has been a problem is that there are some people who are very uncomfortable reading documents in which more than one person is typing at once. m_stone> (on different parts of the doc) greebo> m_stone, heh, you'd think this crowd would be ok with multiple simultaneous authors :) nubae> nobody forces u to read while people are typing nubae> if its uncomfortable, look later nubae> :-) m_stone> nubae: no, the problem is for people who want to stay on top of the discussion -- because they want to be able to call BS, for example -- but who /can't/ when it's going on too much in parallel m_stone> it seemed that about 30% of OLPCers complained loudly of this issue, the last time we tried it greebo> m_stone, was that 30% people unused to online communications? m_stone> many were used to them. (e.g. cscott, marcopg) nubae> really? strange... kevix> what isssue? m_stone> kevix: being unable to follow parallel discussions. nubae> so because there was too much going on I guess... marcopg> but that's because I'm bad at multitasking... I feel I would have issues following a discussion going on in two parallel places
How to proceed?
greebo> m_stone, ok, well, shall we try having something like gobby for notetaking next meeting and see how we go? greebo> m_stone, we'd like need some structure to the initial doc so we don't end up with a big list of stuff that roughly equals the irc log :) m_stone> greebo: I'm personally not very interested in it at the moment, but at the moment, I'm going to a fair amount of effort to collect and prepare nice cleaned-up minutes from our irc meetings. (which takes me a few hours to do.)
greebo> m_stone, ok, so gobby or google docs? m_stone> greebo: so, my recommendation is that we sit tight with IRC + nice minutes for another week or two and see how we're feeling then. m_stone> greebo: in other words, I want us to focus on improving the /content/ of our meetings. (I don't find technology particularly relevant to that.) greebo> m_stone, ok
greebo> I also want to do a blog post after each meeting :) m_stone> greebo: let's talk about that in just a moment. :) marcopg> greebo: nice! kevix> +1
m_stone> greebo: so let's say the same thing we said for phones -- IRC is authoritative and you have to mention things in IRC if you want them to stick. m_stone> but you're welcome to set up a side channel and we'll help you organize it by giving you a minute at the beginning to give a link to how to join your side channel. m_stone> nubae, cjb: does that sound workable? greebo> m_stone, totally nubae> sure, there are many jabber servers anyway nubae> to connect to gobby...
greebo> sorry, I missed something greebo> what would the side channel be for (sorry!) m_stone> greebo: in this case, it would be for people who want to collaborate on shared note-taking while the meeting is going on. greebo> m_stone, ah, good call
m_stone> okay. two down, three to go. m_stone> blog urls, general contact info, and "scope" m_stone> so blog urls: m_stone> I think we should try to get an aggregator going for this kind of stuff. m_stone> (or reuse planet.l.o, or something like that) m_stone> so I'd like us to collect feeds for deployment-related data at the start of each meeting.
cjb> planet.olpcfriends.org? :) greebo> hey, we could use planet.olpcfriends.org.... ;) greebo> heh :)( m_stone> :) greebo> snap!
marcopg> do we want to aggregate deployments only or also olpcfriends? m_stone> I don't feel strongly. anyone else have thoughts? marcopg> if we want all of them, p.l.o might just be fine
greebo> I think we have a planet for all olpcfriends, and a tag for deployments if people only want to read deplpyments greebo> marcopg, yeah, but it is hard to add new feeds m_stone> greebo: why's it hard to add new feeds? greebo> marcopg, m_stone well, nowhere on p.l.o does it say how to add your feed :) marcopg> greebo: ouch, that's clearly broken ;) marcopg> (but easily fixable) cjb> ah, but if I told people how to add their feed then I'd get all this e-mail saying "blah blah add my feed" and it would be awful, see
greebo> for software freedom day, we had a very cool way to deal with planet feeds greebo> we had a wiki page where people (from the board in that case) can add their feed and it automagically turns up on the planet marcopg> sounds cool, I wonder if you are going to have problem with noise at some point, using that approach marcopg> i.e. there seem to be no editorial control? greebo> marcopg, I'm happy with that, a planet is supposed to be representative of a community, rather than strictly controlled. If we want a controlled news feed we ask people to blog though a specific mechanism that does get moderated
greebo> so how about we have deployment/support related blogs on olpcfriends? nubae> olpcfriends is in Australia right? greebo> nubae, well, that is a question, and I forgot to bring it up with the group greebo> currently olpcfriends is Aus/Oceania/NZ region greebo> but it has become clear there is a greater need for the broader olpc community to a self-managed and directed community org around olpc greebo> people who don't/can't work with/for olpc boston, and who don't fit into sugar labs (as they are focused mostly on sugar). People like deployers, support people, and potentially other projects greebo> this is a zygote of an idea
cjb> greebo: is there a good reason not to make it worldwide? greebo> cjb, totally, looking at making it worldwide, and having olpcfriends oceania as our regional group :) cjb> greebo: cool, sounds good nubae> hm... interesting... educators for sure need a mecca of their own
m_stone> greebo: my recommendation is the simplest, I think. :) m_stone> greebo: at the beginning of each meeting, we just ask people: m_stone> "do you have a feed that should be added to any of our planets (deployments, friends, sugar, ...)"? m_stone> and then we collect a list of (feed, planet) pairs and we add them after the meeting. :) greebo> m_stone, totally, awesome idea
m_stone> marcopg: who controls p.sl.o? m_stone> cjb: who controls p.l.o? greebo> cjb, I need time to document the ideas through, and then take it to the broader community, hopefully over the next 3-4 days cjb> m_stone: me marcopg> m_stone: bernie and lfaraone m_stone> greebo: we've got plenty of time. m_stone> cjb: thanks. are you good with my suggestion? cjb> yes m_stone> marcopg: likewise, in your estimation, for bernie and lfaraone? marcopg> m_stone: think so cjb> well, you're just asking people if they'd be willing... the planet maintainers are then welcome to turn them down cjb> so I don't think we need to ask the planet maintainers now, necessarily
Contact Info / Social Networking
greebo> m_stone, heh, cool :) let's move through the other discussion points, and then come back to that greebo> (I have to go to work in an hour or so ;) m_stone> greebo: okay then. let's put my suggestion in to place next week. in the mean time, we can think about olpc-friends related planets. m_stone> greebo: and if we get anything done, then we can ask if people would like to be added to those as well.
m_stone> two items left; let's keep rolling. m_stone> next is general contact info publication. as I understand it, greebo wants us to be sort of "maximally connected".
greebo> m_stone, totally, it supports two functions greebo> a) connecting each other and interested people as much as possible and b) public visibility to awesomeness greebo> currently the amazing goodwill around the project is starting to wane as people want to see something real. We are all doing this, living it, seeing the benefits in the field, and we need to communicate it publicly. greebo> I've given a few talks over the last few months in Australia about what is happening locally, and have been told several times that it is the best talk on OLPC people have heard, not because it is particularly brilliant, but rather because they are hearing for the first time real life stories
m_stone> what do other people here think about that suggestion? kevix> indeed. publicly communicate success stories. +1 marcopg> greebo++
greebo> perhaps our weekly blog writeup about meetings could include a profile of a deployment, or cool project? and I can ask people in the meeting :) marcopg> would be awesome I think m_stone> greebo: that's a good publicity idea, I think.
greebo> there's no reason why we can't have a wiki page for news :) or draw from awesome blogs kevix> when efforts are out of peoples conciousness, they forget. monthly reports from any depolyment would make OLPC come alive to them kevix> any of couse, any video of kids doing cute things is always loved. greebo> kevix, totally
m_stone> greebo: essentially, "featured blog posts" greebo> m_stone, yeah, I think so
greebo> m_stone, it sounds odd, but I'm more interested in resetting the public debate to this being a real thing, than being a fluffy idea. I also want to (and I apologise for the political incorrectness of this) correct some of the messaging coming from boston :) m_stone> greebo: no apologies needed to me. :) kevix> well there is a 'lack' of info coming out of boston IIRC? m_stone> kevix: I prefer to worry less about boston and more about what we're going to publish.
m_stone> greebo: so what I want to understand better is what "profile" info we ought to be collecting, where we ought to be storing it, etc. m_stone> greebo: e.g. what do you think of the http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Profiles page? m_stone> how does it compare with the way that facebook or linkedin would handle this? greebo> perhaps we could have a table with deployment contact details (or even update the existing deployments page) for transparent access to people. For profile info, we could just have a wiki and put some examples? Ultimately most people will likely just blog, so we need to be cross posting good profile blogs to the weekly news wiki page kevix> facebook has many OLPC 'groups' but no news form them.
nubae> u know, this is all stuff Moodle can do very very well along with Mahara greebo> nubae, which stuff? nubae> store deployment details and profiles nubae> mahara is an e-portfolio that really rocks and links in via xml- rpc to moodle and others nubae> I installed it for uni students.. nubae> http://mahara.org/
greebo> m_stone, wow, you have a lot of hair! ;) m_stone> greebo: it fluctuates seasonally.
greebo> m_stone, cool page, you're thinking something like that for deployments or people in deployments? m_stone> greebo: a little bit. it just seemed to me the sort of the that semantic media-wiki is pretty good at. I'm far from wedded to it though. really, I just thought it would be a good basis for discussion of what /you're/ looking for
greebo> I think the personal contact information and links for deployments should simply be added to the deployments page, and people encouraged to update that (rather than another new place). I think the news bit can come from blogs and such. m_stone> greebo: yeah, I agree with that pretty strongly.
greebo> perhaps using the semantic wiki to capture contact details and related urls to automagically add to the deployments page? m_stone> (I don't actually know how to use the SMW stuff myself; I've just appreciated the work that s.page, cjl, mchua, femslade, etc. did with it.) cjl> m_stone: skierpage is the true SMWizard greebo> ok, cool, let's chat about that later then, I think just encouraging people at meetings to add their information to the deployments page is a good start anyway
greebo> nubae, what do you see mahara or moodle as doing that we need? nubae> take a look at mahara. its a collaborative social networking tools for workers... it groups people, allows for sharing of various kinds of info from cvs to mini blogs greebo> nubae, (having looked at mahara) yeah I've seen it before, I think it is an awesome tool but the last thing we need is yet another tool unless we were to replace something with it :) greebo> or perhaps mahara could be the platform for olpcfriends... m_stone> nubae: it might be good if people didn't already have their own sites. nubae> take a look if u get a chance... its also from your neck of the woods greebo> nubae, yeah, the nzers are awesome :) nubae> yeah they did a library open source tool too; very nice greebo> nubae, koha :) dfarning> Highly recommend the use of Moodle. it allows a single community to stay together while splitting off to spend time on there own interests nubae> dfarning: agreed nubae> the problem is we need more people to start populating it
cjl> nubae: I have to agree with greebo, too many different tools to master sets the floor too high for entry. m_stone> nubae: I can see why you thought of it, though. nubae> yeah i see what u mean greebo> nubae, thanks!
cjl> I have to admit I never made the step up to gobby when people started using it, I was just done with learning new tools :-( nubae> gobby is about the easiest collab tool that exists though
m_stone> greebo: so our basic sadness seems to be that none of the social networks seem good at pulling together news-feeds or providing metadata on groups of people.right? and our general feeling is that we'd like something wiki-ish that lets us tie those things together. preferably maintained by someone else. :) m_stone> greebo: is that the general feeling you've got? greebo> m_stone, agree m_stone> greebo: I can tell that, e.g.: you want it to be easy to email people, you want it to be trivial to find someone's blog posts. you want those blog posts aggregated in an easy-to-find place. and, finally, that you want it to be quite public.
greebo> m_stone, umm, I think it has certainly been hard to find information on groups, but I'm not sure we can automate that with a tool. I think we can however encourage it with a community, though. any online community is only going to have as much public access as individuals allow, facebook is a great example of that m_stone> greebo: no, I don't think automation has anything to do with it. I think that giving people social incentives to do it is where the money lies. greebo> ah, gotcha
m_stone> okay. well, I can at least write that up and see what people make of it. I'll cc s.page when I do.
nubae> greebo: u are describing mahara dfarning> Highly recommend Moodle, as it is becoming the default tool among educators greebo> I think perhaps we could use olpcfriends (as in global olpcfriends) with mahara (probably not moodle, doesn't have all the same useful features) or something similar and then get people adding profiles, adding blog urls (and aggregating) greebo> nubae, does mahara aggragate blogs? nubae> yes it does nubae> its the most complete social networking tool based on educational environment I've seen nubae> ok nubae> I actually have a review somewhere nubae> about its integration with moodle nubae> at my site... nubae.com nubae> http://www.nubae.com/mahara-e-portfolio-for-moodle nubae> the good thing is that mahara plugs straigt into it and it allows for storing of personal items done within moodle
m_stone> nubae: well, you should reply to my RFP when I write it. :) m_stone> nubae: then we'll see whether other people get excited about trying it out. m_stone> nubae: (I'm flexible; it's not my support that you need. :)
greebo> dfarning, will look at moodle, have tried using it, find it difficult :) I think we'll be looking at loads of tools, and possibly end up usong a few :) nubae> greebo: moodle just requires practice... Mahara is easier to understand nubae> oh.. I have an example moodle and mahara installed here in case someone wants to see nubae> http://nubae.selfip.com/moodle/login/index.php nubae> logging in as guest should show u the link to mahara and u can then enter that m_stone> nubae: why do I have to log in? :) nubae> example of nicely customised moodle with mahara integration, thats why
greebo> nubae, I just set up an account ont he mahara website to play nubae> ah ok... cool greebo> nubae, if mahara does become a tool of choice, d you have time/energy to help with customise it for our community needs? nubae> sure nubae> the only thing is, I dont want to be left holding the ball... ie, I'd like some help from others too nubae> but yes, I'll gladly set up the infrastructure and customisations greebo> nubae, of course, cool
nubae> actually that would be a really good way of localising activities too nubae> so that the groups in question would have the activities specific to their regions greebo> nubae, totally nubae> anyway, I'll stop selling mahara now :-p
greebo> nubae, hey, can mahara do resources allocation? nubae> greebo: I believe it can nubae> not 100 percent sure though
greebo> nubae, and project management? nubae> lemme check greebo> nubae, don't worry, I'll play and see what I find. Thanks for the idea nubae> well it works with groups nubae> and sends notifications nubae> allows for membership to institutions and the like... nubae> theres also lots of custom plugins for mahara nubae> ooooh... and it can do backups nubae> it has file quota.... might be a solution for xo backup
m_stone> greebo: we should talk about scope soon, before everyone completely fades. :) greebo> my ideas for the deployer meeting scope include: deployment logistics, technologies, training, support\ greebo> and also includes deployer needs - wishlists, and news greebo> and doesn't include: pedagogy, software development, educator support,
marcopg> greebo: have you ever discussed with walter about how these relates to SL local labs? greebo> marcopg, in relation to SL, yes I've chatted to both Walter and to dfarning about olpcfriends, and about deployments. My feeling (and Walter says this too) is that Sugar Labs should focus on Sugar - on making it awesome, on integrating and facilitating educator/pedagogy discussions, etc greebo> so olpcfriends could provide deployment and support to SL initiated deployments too. I don't think olpcfriends needs to be wedded to a particular hardware or os platform in the longer term, but for now the olpc brand is very important, and that refugee community needs bringing together. plus to xo is by far the best hardware currently available :)
marcopg> greebo: my main confusion is that, how I understood them, local labs are also going to deal with deployments marcopg> and that seem to somewhat intersect with olpcfriends scope marcopg> (especially if olpcfriends keeps deploying sugar)
greebo> marcopg, the problem is why would SL people want to troubleshoot networking issues, or faulty HDDs? Basically a SL doing a deployment in collaboration with the deployer SIG and support of olpcfriends would make it easier for them to do what they do best :)
marcopg> greebo: personally I would actually love to have SL *not* deal with deployments directly marcopg> greebo: so if olpcfriends can cover that part, all for the better imo :) marcopg> I don't want SL focusing on too many things
greebo> I think a lot of people have gone to sugar labs who aren't sugar centric due to conflicts with olpc boston, so why don't we bring the deployer/support community together focused on the vision of olpc, of which sugar is a given, but the hardware/os is interchangable :)( greebo> I would love to see olpcfriends having support gang and volunteers from deployment groups all around the world (whether they be a sugar lab, or olpc nepal, or a government department) participating in support gang for support, and participating in the deployer sig for best practices and peer support. greebo> This needs to be discussed more with support gang though, very early days :)(
marcopg> greebo: I think I pretty much agree with your vision marcopg> greebo: so I'll let you go on with the main topic
greebo> I don't think olpcfriends will be a big top down org, but rather a grassroots community with people focused on projects, so a deployment team would be a project, and would share resources with other deployers and support people to make their deployment happen. I don't think top down works for deployments at the best of times. m_stone> greebo: much more bazaar like than cathedral like. :) m_stone> greebo: we want to be, well, /buzzing/. :) greebo> m_stone, heh, strangely, yes ;)
Scope of Deployment Meetings?
greebo> ok, back to scope, anyone have anything to add/remove/discuss about my proposal? Everything is able to be changed at this early stage :) marcopg> greebo: it will be good to keep discussing it with david and walter, so that we are sure to integrate the two things in the best possible way greebo> marcopg, cool, considering SL are currently looking at how to deal with support, it is great timing. I'm hoping to convince support gang to become an olpcfriends project (self-managed by the community) and then SL people can join the support gang to put suppor ttickets through a common oinfrastructure for peer support, and to leverage a large body of knowledge and experts
m_stone> was that intended primarily as a discussion of the scope of the deployment mtgs like the one we just had or was it intended more broadly as a scope for olpcfriends?
greebo> more broadly scope for olpcfriends, it was totally off topic, sorry :) greebo> my ideas for the deployer meeting scope include: deployment logistics, technologies, training, support\ greebo> and also includes deployer needs - wishlists, and news greebo> and doesn't include: pedagogy, software development, educator support, greebo> my feeling is that educators/pedagogy discussions should largely happen in sugar labs, considering their feedback and how they use the platform in the classroom is largely at that level of the stack greebo> m_stone, then scope also might include appropriate reporting, resources and pimpage of deployment success stories
greebo> other ideas? marcopg> greebo: sounds very good to me. (grr! I agree with greebo too much, it's not fun :P) greebo> marcopg, heh, we need some more flames. perhaps we could debate food, or tv shows ;) m_stone> greebo: programming languages, clearly. m_stone> or collaboration protocols. :) marcopg> hehe
m_stone> greebo: mainly, I'd like to better understand why you want to exclude the things you mentioned. m_stone> so anyway, why are pedagogy, educator support, and sw-dev out of scope? greebo> m_stone, my thoughts are that the people doing deployments will likely have people in the team who know that stuff, but largely can't contribute meaningfully to a educator/pedagogy level discussion. If we had educators in the meeting too, we'll just end up with half a meeting where each party doesn't understand what is going on. I think we need input to both parties from the other, but to actually get into gritty details of deployments, we need to all be on the same page (roughly). unforutnately, we have limited time each week to look at the issues of deployments. adding how to write software, how to teach a child to the mix would mean a mixed audience, a mixed discussion, and would make it more difficult to talk about deployments :) greebo> also, I think sw-dev is happening in the various groups and their main comms is through their established channels, we need to inject deployment needs into that conversation, but if we had discussions about how to develop a program for sugar, or how to hack the kernel, then again, it gets away from deployments. Most deployments I think wouldn't need to do major changes to the base image. m_stone> greebo: see, I see more sw-dev happening as a /result/ of the participation of sw-dev folks in the meetings already than happened in the entire month prior. greebo> m_stone, really? I think inviting both educators and software developers to the meeting is totally cool, anyone can come, but the scope of the conversattion should be about deployments, right? for example: I think teacher training is important (and part of a deployment), but whether "chat" has any pedagogical value isn't something most deployers can contribute to. marcopg> I think keeping limited and clear scopes, and having flexible groups (with people bridging between them), is a good strategy. it helps focusing the discussion without limiting cross- pollination
wadeb|w> I think you need to dedicate people to interface between sw-dev, education, deployment factions. some people are good at interfacing with other disciplines; they should be identified and should join multiple groups marcopg> wadeb|w: right, was about to say... some people can join multiple groups marcopg> me and you are here, for example ;) wadeb|w> right. mostly cause I remembered to put it on my calendar, and it's a reasonable time EST :) greebo> wadeb|w, totally!
m_stone> greebo: you said that you don't think that deployments are going to want to do any major surgery on base images. where are those base images going to come from, though? and how do you explain the fact that people (e.g. dsd) were talking in today's meeting about doing such surgery? (also remember the java + gnash updates?)
greebo> m_stone, heh :) actually, I've been thinking about that too. Am talking to some folk about moving the release management to olpcfriends as a community managed and transparent process m_stone> greebo: I seem to remember some conversations along those lines from last week. :) greebo> it will take a little while to figure out, but there is no reason why xo (or any other images) couldn't be community managed release processes, just like GNOME or Ubuntu marcopg> I don't quite see how release management fits in the scope we discussed so far...
marcopg> m_stone: and why they can't interface with software groups to do so? m_stone> marcopg: /what/ software group? marcopg> m_stone: is olpcfriends a software group? I guess that's what is confusing me from this discussion... greebo> marcopg, olpcfriends is currently an idea, we are looking at building a community managed org to meet the gaps like deployments, support and xo release management
m_stone> greebo: part of why I'm taking such an active role in helping to organize these meetings is because I think they contribute productively toward a lively sw-dev community. greebo> m_stone, I totally agree that customisations and modifications of sw for deployments are on topic (and dsd's comments absolutely), I just wouldn't want to see people moving how to do softwarre devel into this meeting, I think any topic which is focused on deployments fits, which will include some limited sw-dev :) m_stone> okay, that makes more sense... hrm. I'd feel better if you and I (and other interested parties) spent some time (needn't be today) talking more about how to keep the sw-dev ball rolling and if we announced that our interest in the same as a parallel process to the deployment mtgs which we are currently facilitating. m_stone> greebo: does that make sense? greebo> m_stone, makes sense, and definitely warrants more discussion m_stone> greebo: in that case, I'm very happy to support the scope limitations you suggested so long as we remain flexible about their enforcement & "drift" over time. :)
marcopg> greebo: I'm not completely convinced release management fits well with the rest of the goals greebo> marcopg, so am thinking of proposing the creation of an olpcfriends release management team, is a seperate projcet to the deployment sig marcopg> what does that team do exactly? marcopg> creates his own customized builds of X distribution? marcopg> there is no release management without a development team greebo> marcopg, understand, I see the release management as a seperate project. the goals we were discussing was for this meeting/channel/sub-community greebo> there is no reason why olpcfriends can't have other subcommunitees and projects :) greebo> we likely won't be discussing release management ever in this channel or in these meetings :) m_stone> greebo: yeah, right. :) m_stone> greebo: (c.f. your and dsd's interest in 8.2.1 today..) :) greebo> m_stone, oh, I think we'll generally try to be flexible :) but if someone starts talking git vs bzr in one of these meetings, unless they have a really good deployment related reason, I'll try to move the meeting on ;) m_stone> greebo: as would I. (as /did/ I....) marcopg> greebo: ok, so I guess discussing release management here is off topic cjb> marcopg: I think mainly greebo's saying that the topic should be dictated by the deployment folks greebo> cjb, pretty much :) greebo> marcopg, yes :) sorry to confused things. It's your fault for not reading my mind ;) marcopg> greebo: well I was looking for a bit of disagreement so this is good and fun :P greebo> marcopg, heh :)
greebo> ok, I really have to go everyone, I have to go to work :) m_stone I will write up more stuff when I get back if that is ok, later today. would you mind posting the irc logs and any notes you think of, and we'll chat more later m_stone> greebo: g'day then. :) greebo> m_stone, heh, thanks :)
greebo> oh, one last question, if the deployment sig was an olpcfriends project, would it be useful for people to ahve online project management tools hosted by olpcfriends?