Grassroots bootcamp/Results/wednesday transcript

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Feedback from classroom roleplaying

Jun 11 10:23:18 <_sj_>	chris : it woul be nice to have a class of real children to test with; it's a bit hard to pretend
Jun 11 10:23:19 *	mchua transcribing from bootcamp
Jun 11 10:23:28 <mchua>	_sj_: i can transcribe - you should facilitate ;)
Jun 11 10:23:35 <_sj_>	or to be honestly interested rather than trying to roleplay a particular kind of student
Jun 11 10:23:36 <_sj_>	hehe
Jun 11 10:23:46 <mchua>	nl: the group of people in the back weren't really pretending very well, or trying much to be 8
Jun 11 10:23:58 <mchua>	nl: i was the loud kid who's always making comments, mel was the kid who's hyper
Jun 11 10:24:09 <mchua>	sk: i was interested thta you .. everyone started the roleplay by picking a persona
Jun 11 10:24:16 <mchua>	and ho weasy was it to saty in character?
Jun 11 10:24:20 <mchua>	nl: for me it was easy.
Jun 11 10:24:43 <mchua>	sk: it seems like there were some different roles
Jun 11 10:25:01 <mchua>	one was trying to model a classroom socially
Jun 11 10:25:09 <mchua>	the other was trying to model the experience of introcugin children to xos
Jun 11 10:25:14 <mchua>	they seem pretty separate
Jun 11 10:25:20 <mchua>	nl: we didn't have  clear goal on what we were trying to do
Jun 11 10:25:28 <mchua>	which we were trying to model
Jun 11 10:25:46 <mchua>	there wasn't enough context
Jun 11 10:25:56 <mchua>	ther'es a big difference between kids who have just gotten an XO, and kids who have had them for a while
Jun 11 10:26:14 <mchua>	sK: the other things is that part of working with XOs is walking thorugh how the enviornment works.
Jun 11 10:26:28 <mchua>	the exercise was doing a single lesson.
Jun 11 10:26:42 <mchua>	but did we ant to suffer walking through activation and unpackingand etc?
Jun 11 10:27:00 <mchua>	nl: this is frustrating - I'm like "you're wrong, but I can't articulate it"
Jun 11 10:27:25 <mchua>	fs: experiencing a classroom usage isn't documented very well.
Jun 11 10:27:44 <mchua>	sw: agreed. we should much rather, than spending our time trying to simulate this, we shuld actually experience them with kids.
Jun 11 10:27:54 <mchua>	also, if we were goin to od anything, we should experiment with ok, here's we give his to kids and let them play
Jun 11 10:27:59 <mchua>	vs we give them an intro and let them play
Jun 11 10:28:14 <mchua>	fs: I think some producive things came out of it.
Jun 11 10:28:23 <mchua>	nl: I htink people who were into playing8 year olds got something out of it.
Jun 11 10:28:42 <mchua>	fs: that wasn't you being 8, maybe... it was not being in a teache rposition
Jun 11 10:29:11 <mchua>	fs: like when mel was running around in the back, and trying to figure out how what she wanted to do could be put into something constructive
Jun 11 10:29:36 <mchua>	fs: that was very helpful - she was running around and then I coudl say ok, make your bat go to different places, when you push these buttons... then add another bat, and make the bat do something
Jun 11 10:30:01 <mchua>	another example was - one of the most helpful thigs was having 'kids' explain to me why the program was doing what it was doing
Jun 11 10:30:41 <mchua>	maybe i got more out of being the teacher than you got out of being 8
Jun 11 10:31:03 <mchua>	nl: I think a lot ofpeople got things out of playing with scratch, more than being 8
Jun 11 10:31:16 <mchua>	fs: that was a problem - people weren't relaly trying to be 8
Jun 11 10:31:28 <mchua>	they were either being super difficult at being 8, or they were not being 8
Jun 11 10:34:11 <_sj_>	mchua talks but isn't transcribing herself...
Jun 11 10:34:29 <_sj_>	mchua : i got a lot out of being a child, b/c iut forced me to think not in terms of being a teafher, classroom goals, how this prepares you for life
Jun 11 10:34:51 <_sj_>	but instead thinking like an interested person who wants to do /something/ at the moent and spontaneously explore stuff
Jun 11 10:35:06 <_sj_>	I didn't get a chance to actually do this at school, it was an intersting alt reality check about what a classroom might ahve ben like at that age
Jun 11 10:35:13 <_sj_>	sj : it occurs to me that something that would be really awesome
Jun 11 10:35:17 <mchua>	sk: it occurs to me something that would be really aewsome 
Jun 11 10:35:19 <mchua>	is having a number of classroom types
Jun 11 10:35:24 <mchua>	environments
Jun 11 10:35:26 <mchua>	wokred out in skit form
Jun 11 10:35:28 <mchua>	in video form
Jun 11 10:35:35 <mchua>	mental models of different ways of learning
Jun 11 10:35:58 <mchua>	you need a convincing and reasonably flexible group of actors
Jun 11 10:36:02 <mchua>	who could take on these different roles
Jun 11 10:36:09 <mchua>	and to do a well organized class w/ schedules etc
Jun 11 10:36:15 <mchua>	(and other types of environemnts)
Jun 11 10:36:34 <mchua>	sw: if we do try to do his, aren't we at risk of projecting our view of how we think kids should react/
Jun 11 10:36:35 <mchua>	?
Jun 11 10:36:44 <mchua>	sk: there are a number of classroom sets
Jun 11 10:36:55 <mchua>	the es way to get those is to go to the actual classrooms and do i in person
Jun 11 10:37:33 <mchua>	it's fine for us to say 'here are 5 types of classrooms we think would be different, here's the bootcamp skit about what we think it might be'
Jun 11 10:37:37 <isforinsects>	Sj: documenting forms of class education and having a common lexicon
Jun 11 10:37:45 <mchua>	we start moving towards a common language we can use to talk about these concepts
Jun 11 10:37:49 <isforinsects>	Types of learning environment
Jun 11 10:37:58 <mchua>	and then when you take it somewher - "this is a great tool for learning something in a certain way"
Jun 11 10:38:18 <mchua>	sw: then if osmeone is designing an activity, they can say "i'm going to design it for this typ eof collab"
Jun 11 10:38:32 <mchua>	sk: we dont have many activities intended for a paritculat use case
Jun 11 10:39:08 <isforinsects>	mel: Much like ethnographic field research
Jun 11 10:39:35 <isforinsects>	:standing outside and trying to model the actions and then bring the complete interaction models and compare them to events
Jun 11 10:40:17 <mchua>	mel: it's not that the researcher has absolute truth - they work with the people they're trying to understand, those people can say "yeah, this model is good, this model is totally wrong"
Jun 11 10:41:19 <mchua>	fs: what would have improved the 8 year old exercise is if we had taken 10 minutes before and discussed "ok, why is this going to be productive? what will we get out of it?"
Jun 11 10:41:38 <mchua>	that way people who weren't going to participate would know what they would have understod what was going on
Jun 11 10:42:18 <mchua>	sk: what happened after cynthia came?
Jun 11 10:42:27 <mchua>	mc: by that point in time most people had gone off to do their own thing and not being 8
Jun 11 10:42:37 <mchua>	fs: i think if cynthia had started it, it woul dhave been better
Jun 11 10:42:49 <mchua>	nl: well, my 8 year old was totally not paying attention to cynthia's lesson, so
Jun 11 10:43:20 <mchua>	mc: also, at that point in time in the day, people (before the exercise started) had already started wanting to do their own stuff, so it wouldhave been hard to pull them together for nay activity

Education-related community problems

This wasn't transcribed particularly well - better notes are on a whiteboard, and they'll be transcribed later.

Jun 11 10:43:42 <mchua>	sj: *stands on chair, calls attention*
Jun 11 10:43:45 <mchua>	mc: my god, you're tall!
Jun 11 10:43:52 <mchua>	sk: now I know how tall people feel
Jun 11 10:44:06 <mchua>	sk: last night we did some crazy stuff
Jun 11 10:44:20 <mchua>	discussed doing useful things w/ education and how they don't scale
Jun 11 10:46:13 <isforinsects>	sj: problems people have come up with
Jun 11 10:46:25 <isforinsects>	Chris: replicating the classroom enviroment with introducing the XO?
Jun 11 10:46:37 <isforinsects>	fem: falls into the category of...?
Jun 11 10:48:33 <isforinsects>	Chris: how do you convince volunteers that a project has value?
Jun 11 10:48:48 <isforinsects>	sj: asses value

Side notes

Jun 11 11:01:40 >isforinsects<	can you transcribe/moderate josh gay's talk? i need to pop out for a few minutes in the middle of it for a meeting that has to happen before we leave for chicago
Jun 11 11:02:18 >isforinsects<	i know you'll probably be super-participatory, but knowing josh he'll probably talk for a while in the beginning before discussion opens up - and that talk is what I'd like transcribed..  you can delegate discussion transcription to someone else, or i can pick it up if I'm back by the time that starts
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Jun 11 11:24:37 <isforinsects>	aside: mchua do you know how to upload a .zip to the wiki and have it decompress?  Or to upload 30+ files at once?
Jun 11 11:24:53 <isforinsects>	that bad huh?
Jun 11 11:24:55 <mchua>	isforinsects: sorry, no.
Jun 11 11:25:01 <isforinsects>	...
Jun 11 11:25:06 <isforinsects>	mediawiki has to be able to do it
Jun 11 11:25:12 <isforinsects>	admins should be able to use such a tool
Jun 11 11:25:13 <mchua>	isforinsects: we could install this extension. http://examples.anotherwebcom.com/wikis/MediaWiki/Category:MediaWiki_Multi-File_Upload
Jun 11 11:25:30 <isforinsects>	... how the h@11 did you find that that fast?
Jun 11 11:25:32 <isforinsects>	wtf?
Jun 11 11:26:56 <nlee>	isforinsects: mel is made of magic
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Jun 11 11:27:49 <mchua>	isforinsects: :D i contain 1024% of the RDA for magic
Jun 11 11:27:49 <isforinsects>	Are you a unicorn?
Jun 11 11:27:55 <mchua>	nlee: am i a unicorn?
Jun 11 11:28:03 <mchua>	nlee: I think another animal might better describe me...
Jun 11 11:28:13 <isforinsects>	Mel is a unicorn
Jun 11 11:28:18 <nlee>	mchua: are you pointy in the forehead?
Jun 11 11:28:19 <mchua>	chinese zodiac says i'm a tiger, which meshes with the "outdoor cat" personality
Jun 11 11:28:30 <isforinsects>	unicorn: 'probably mythical, made of magic,
Jun 11 11:28:32 <isforinsects>	'
Jun 11 11:28:32 <mchua>	nlee: forehead curvature somewhat low... no
Jun 11 11:28:42 <mchua>	nlee: is there such a think as retractable unicorns?
Jun 11 11:28:52 <nlee>	isforinsects: interesting
Jun 11 11:29:10 <mchua>	nlee: eeh... you'd need a collapsible horn... otherwise your spine would become not bendy, and neck flexure would be pain
Jun 11 11:29:28 <mchua>	isforinsects: I think it is safe to say that I am not a unicorn, at least not the standard type
Jun 11 11:29:34 <mchua>	isforinsects: also, hooves make it hard to type this fast
Jun 11 11:31:22 <isforinsects>	mchua, http://www.beaverandsteve.com/index.php?comic=172

Kim Quirk and Joe Feinstein on community testing

Jun 11 11:40:29 <mchua>	kim quirk and joe feinstein here
Jun 11 11:40:44 <mchua>	kq is talking about community testing
Jun 11 11:41:01 <mchua>	kq: can't stay very long, but transcribing is ok
Jun 11 11:41:23 <mchua>	int he past, what we've done is take lots of ieeas and suggestion on how to get community doing
Jun 11 11:41:31 <mchua>	we tried doing some wiki pages off [[Testing]] for if you wanted to test, geting started, e
Jun 11 11:41:32 <mchua>	etc
Jun 11 11:41:43 <mchua>	those pages are a little old but they can give us a feel for how to get the community started
Jun 11 11:41:48 <mchua>	and thenpeple can follow up with emails and information
Jun 11 11:41:59 <mchua>	questions?
Jun 11 11:42:28 <mchua>	what came up yesterday?
Jun 11 11:42:36 <mchua>	sk: one thing that came up was something christoph was doing..
Jun 11 11:42:46 <isforinsects>	sj: literacy bridge
Jun 11 11:42:47 <mchua>	he representes a class of people who liek what we do nd want to develop somewhat related sw
Jun 11 11:42:58 <mchua>	whoops - not christoph, cliff
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Jun 11 11:43:00 <isforinsects>	own hardware, similar project
Jun 11 11:43:07 <mchua>	but we cluldn't get him hardware
Jun 11 11:43:10 <bjordan>	isforinsects: ping
Jun 11 11:43:18 <mchua>	kq: the processes for easily getting laptops... workin gon it
Jun 11 11:43:29 <mchua>	sk: he ended up doing cool stuff anyway!
Jun 11 11:43:31 <isforinsects>	bjordan, pm
Jun 11 11:43:40 <mchua>	but this is a wonderful project... on the tech side, he's buidling a audiobok
Jun 11 11:43:53 <mchua>	on the social isde, they have a model for deployment of that echnology
Jun 11 11:44:01 *	mchua 's brain slugish today
Jun 11 11:44:10 <mchua>	(typing may be more eronoeus than usueal)
Jun 11 11:44:24 <mchua>	kq: infrasttructure for sharing schools stuff?
Jun 11 11:44:26 <mchua>	sk: yes
Jun 11 11:44:37 <mchua>	kq: i think sugar labs is pretty abstracted from the hardware as well
Jun 11 11:44:53 <mchua>	(discussion on hw/sw abstraction making it easier for devels to contribute when things a more modularized)
Jun 11 11:45:07 <mchua>	kq: we do have a goal to start abstracting more from the hw/sw split
Jun 11 11:45:17 <isforinsects>	kq: it's hard to sparate out sections of our very integrated software that don't require our hardware
Jun 11 11:45:20 <mchua>	so they can worry about collaboration and not have to worry about th eunderlying hw part
Jun 11 11:45:41 <mchua>	kq: joe feinstein is bak now - he only started last week
Jun 11 11:45:45 <mchua>	qa mgr
Jun 11 11:45:55 <mchua>	but we've been talking about goals for testing and have lists of interestede peopl with xos
Jun 11 11:46:05 <mchua>	going to send out "hey here's how to get started "stuff
Jun 11 11:46:19 <mchua>	cd: qustion - saw 8.1.1 bugifix release was out... sunday? i'm going to post about that fridan
Jun 11 11:46:21 <mchua>	friday
Jun 11 11:46:29 <mchua>	(olpcnews, i assume)
Jun 11 11:46:39 <mchua>	kq: that's riday, so if joe can make sure there's a good wiki page for that
Jun 11 11:46:42 <mchua>	would be great
Jun 11 11:47:17 <mchua>	the other things we talked about - there is a testing mailing list
Jun 11 11:47:18 <mchua>	and i'ts public
Jun 11 11:47:27 <mchua>	you do have to request to be on it, not sure if we want to change that and open subscription it
Jun 11 11:47:32 <mchua>	but if you want to help out testing please join
Jun 11 11:47:43 <mchua>	that's the list joe wil be tusing
Jun 11 11:48:14 <mchua>	jf: before, testing wa sdone ocasonally by random people
Jun 11 11:48:25 <mchua>	i came in with experience of doing testing @ comercial company
Jun 11 11:48:32 <mchua>	more rigorous... v diffeernt environemnt
Jun 11 11:48:45 <mchua>	now we have just a few human testors here at 1cc
Jun 11 11:48:59 <mchua>	we would like to getmore testers
Jun 11 11:49:19 <mchua>	what we would like to od is if ou become of a member of this testing team, we wnat you to do tests in a controleld environment
Jun 11 11:49:29 <mchua>	that means you know exactly how to set pu each test case 
Jun 11 11:49:36 <mchua>	and report resluts back in a partic. way
Jun 11 11:50:00 <mchua>	trac is a formal system for reporting bugs
Jun 11 11:50:09 <mchua>	kq: it's importnat that if you want to test but aren't comfy w trac tha tyou talk with joe etc
Jun 11 11:50:33 <mchua>	jf: controlled tests are important for engineering companies!
Jun 11 11:50:51 <mchua>	othe thinking is that connectivity is v complicated ot test
Jun 11 11:51:24 <mchua>	for example one of the reports we got was the xo disrupted someone's home network
Jun 11 11:51:32 <mchua>	so what I said is "in your environment, yu can test these things..."
Jun 11 11:51:35 <mchua>	but how can we reproduce it here?
Jun 11 11:51:40 <mchua>	so it's a 2-way road
Jun 11 11:51:55 <bjordan>	Joe Feinstein :-D
Jun 11 11:52:04 <bjordan>	joe at laptop.org
Jun 11 11:52:06 <mchua>	we don't know yet how this will work, so my suggestion is talk with me, joe at laptop
Jun 11 11:52:21 <mchua>	send me your contact info and whether you have a particular area of interest for testing
Jun 11 11:52:32 <mchua>	i will send you work
Jun 11 11:53:12 <mchua>	cd: i don't hav etime to test but can find othre people to test
Jun 11 11:53:31 <bjordan>	put in subject: Virtual Test Team
Jun 11 11:53:59 <mchua>	fs: this isn't public yet
Jun 11 11:54:03 <mchua>	cd: it will be - i'm going to write about it
Jun 11 11:54:48 <bjordan>	charlie at laptop.org
Jun 11 11:54:54 <mchua>	kq: introducing charlie, our testing intern this summer
Jun 11 11:55:13 <mchua>	we're also makign livecds for particular builds so people can test w/o xos
Jun 11 11:55:59 <mchua>	GAH CONVERSATION TOO FAST TO TRANSCRIBE!
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Jun 11 11:56:26 <bjordan>	SJ: 1. press release
Jun 11 11:56:38 <bjordan>	more general... "here's a first step"
Jun 11 11:56:52 <bjordan>	alex: universities
Jun 11 11:56:54 <mchua>	kq: also we should test this process of getting started witha few peple before inviting hordes of volunteers
Jun 11 11:57:24 <bjordan>	joe's testing will be more structured
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Jun 11 11:58:05 <mchua>	cd: francesca brings up a good point about making the process more public
Jun 11 11:58:12 <mchua>	big "you can contribute" announcement
Jun 11 11:58:32 <bjordan>	testing, localization, development, etc
Jun 11 11:58:39 <nlee>	isforinsects: ping
Jun 11 11:58:43 <mchua>	bjordan: thanks. you're a lifesaver.
Jun 11 11:59:13 <bjordan>	francesca: clearer info on wiki, how you can help
Jun 11 11:59:34 <bjordan>	francesca: e.g., when contacting david pogue, tell him to reach out to developers
Jun 11 12:00:10 <bjordan>	alex: reaching out to developers would help get us some of our credibility back
Jun 11 12:00:17 <mchua>	seth: we need ot publicize our contined use of foss
Jun 11 12:00:20 <bjordan>	alex: boy scouts open source
Jun 11 12:00:22 <bjordan>	SETH
Jun 11 12:00:26 <bjordan>	not alex
Jun 11 12:00:35 <bjordan>	four letter names
Jun 11 12:01:20 <bjordan>	mel: how can we find out about testing progress/plans
Jun 11 12:02:22 <isforinsects>	Said link: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9095238&pageNumber=1
Jun 11 12:02:24 <mchua>	and past reactions to the former testing frameworks
Jun 11 12:02:30 <isforinsects>	boyscouts and OSI ^
Jun 11 12:02:58 <bjordan>	second page has OLPC callout ^
Jun 11 12:03:39 <bjordan>	seth: when will test procedures be set up?
Jun 11 12:04:08 <bjordan>	joe: we may ask you to help with that
Jun 11 12:04:34 <bjordan>	seth: I'm probably not qualified
Jun 11 12:04:44 <bjordan>	joe: anyone can send me an email to get involved
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Josh Gay on designing for participation

Jun 11 12:43:36 <mchua>	Josh Gay from the FSF is here
Jun 11 12:43:44 <mchua>	isforinsects: I'll transcribe until 1pm but then I have to run, can you take over at that point
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Jun 11 12:44:43 -andreatl-	the first weekend.
Jun 11 12:45:31 <_sj_>	some quick intros
Jun 11 12:45:36 <_sj_>	faisal notes that he's working on documentation for users
Jun 11 12:45:49 <_sj_>	and if people have questions they can ask him... he will post a link to developing docs to the sugar-list soon
Jun 11 12:45:53 <_sj_>	paul fox : working on EC things
Jun 11 12:45:58 <_sj_>	emiliano,working with cscott from uruguay
Jun 11 12:46:06 <_sj_>	and to ansewr any q's about uru, since ppl don't have much feedback from uru yet.
Jun 11 12:46:09 <_sj_>	:)
Jun 11 12:46:19 <_sj_>	scott: if you want to know anything about the uru deploy or how many ppl are in montevideo...
Jun 11 12:48:43 <_sj_>	adam notes that he and cd are polanning a trip up to vancouver by car
Jun 11 12:49:14 <_sj_>	scott: since josh is probably going to talk about freedom and all of that...
Jun 11 12:49:20 <_sj_>	I'm also tasked with implementing thigns like antitheft and c.
Jun 11 12:49:25 <_sj_>	if you want to know why that's important, talk to emiliano...
Jun 11 12:49:41 <_sj_>	we had an armed robbery in peru, where 66 laptops were stolen after the driver was tied up and beaten and whatnot.
Jun 11 12:49:49 <mchua>	cscott asking for help with... ?
Jun 11 12:49:54 <_sj_>	my job is to protect the xo's in ways that also protect's children's freedom
Jun 11 12:49:58 <_sj_>	so if you have ideas about howt o do this...
Jun 11 12:50:04 <mchua>	ah, generic security ok
Jun 11 12:50:09 <_sj_>	emiliano knows how this can go wrong... like when we incorrectly generated leases for 7k machines...
Jun 11 12:50:49 <isforinsects>	Jay speaking now
Jun 11 12:50:53 <isforinsects>	Campaign manager
Jun 11 12:50:54 <mchua>	josh gay:
Jun 11 12:50:54 <_sj_>	so now perhaps josh wll talk about freedom
Jun 11 12:51:01 <isforinsects>	wants to apply it to FSF or anyone else
Jun 11 12:51:03 <_sj_>	jgay: no, I won't :)  I'm talking about campaigns....
Jun 11 12:51:07 <_sj_>	things that can work.
Jun 11 12:51:08 <isforinsects>	approaches and things that can work
Jun 11 12:51:11 <mchua>	josh: i've learned a lot about grassroots organizing at the fsf
Jun 11 12:51:18 <isforinsects>	all of us here are involved in one or many comminities
Jun 11 12:51:20 *	_sj_ stops transcribing
Jun 11 12:51:33 <mchua>	(there are words on the whiteboard - "Desgining for Participation: A recursive, campaigning approach")
Jun 11 12:51:35 <isforinsects>	each has many different ways of functioniong and clabborating
Jun 11 12:51:43 <isforinsects>	Here's how!
Jun 11 12:51:44 <isforinsects>	heh
Jun 11 12:51:50 <mchua>	thanks, isforinsects - need to run in a few
Jun 11 12:52:01 <isforinsects>	Designing for Participation: A recursive, campainging approach
Jun 11 12:52:04 <isforinsects>	FSF is outreaching
Jun 11 12:52:14 <isforinsects>	inwardly a lot of phonecalls... point?
Jun 11 12:52:25 <isforinsects>	usually what we choose to do is make things public and ask for help in what we do
Jun 11 12:52:37 <isforinsects>	methodology for reaching out to people in every phase of the process
Jun 11 12:52:40 <isforinsects>	we have a loo
Jun 11 12:52:41 <isforinsects>	Loop
Jun 11 12:52:49 <nlee>	words on board: goal
Jun 11 12:52:52 <isforinsects>	We have a goal, goal of the project
Jun 11 12:53:03 <isforinsects>	subgoal of the project, of a given blah blah blah
Jun 11 12:53:06 <isforinsects>	can be lots of things
Jun 11 12:53:10 <isforinsects>	Need an Action Statement
Jun 11 12:53:17 <nlee>	words on board: action statement
Jun 11 12:53:21 <isforinsects>	nlee +1
Jun 11 12:53:29 <isforinsects>	action statement needs to be actionable
Jun 11 12:53:35 <isforinsects>	might have prerequs
Jun 11 12:53:40 <isforinsects>	Like a given skill
Jun 11 12:53:52 <isforinsects>	If that's a problem go back and look up what is required for the prereqs
Jun 11 12:53:59 <isforinsects>	Designed defective by design
Jun 11 12:54:10 <isforinsects>	To grassroots talking about bad bad DRM
Jun 11 12:54:19 <isforinsects>	goal might be narrowly defined
Jun 11 12:54:32 <isforinsects>	"we want to try to oust of a specific memeber of the EU"
Jun 11 12:54:52 <isforinsects>	We could say we go against the proposal, but we want to narrow the goal
Jun 11 12:54:55 <nlee>	[for proposing something pro-DRM]
Jun 11 12:55:07 <isforinsects>	A lighthouse casting light on a field, or a laser focusing on a laptop
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Jun 11 12:55:35 <isforinsects>	Sometimes our goal is we need a webdesigner, so we ask a narrowly defined part and recruit
Jun 11 12:55:42 <nlee>	words on board: goal -> action statement -> recruit
Jun 11 12:55:43 <isforinsects>	How do we recruit?
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Jun 11 12:55:54 <isforinsects>	How do you recruit for a very specific thing
Jun 11 12:55:55 <isforinsects>	?
Jun 11 12:56:04 <isforinsects>	back to beginning and say: we need a base of supporters
Jun 11 12:56:16 <isforinsects>	Let's build a community of mind: people who understand an issue.
Jun 11 12:56:46 <isforinsects>	State the goal, find a way to build that community (action) slashdot (dig)
Jun 11 12:56:52 <isforinsects>	Drive attention towards this issue
Jun 11 12:56:56 <isforinsects>	1 state the goal
Jun 11 12:56:59 <isforinsects>	2 build the community
Jun 11 12:57:11 <isforinsects>	3 actually recruiting: boingboing, phonecalls, dig, /. etc
Jun 11 12:57:22 <isforinsects>	4 Participation step
Jun 11 12:57:25 <nlee>	words on board: recruit -> participation step
Jun 11 12:57:29 <isforinsects>	This is recursive
Jun 11 12:57:33 <nlee>	[and things leading to recruit same]
Jun 11 12:57:58 <isforinsects>	Email: read something, understand something, participation step (do something)
Jun 11 12:58:05 <nlee>	words on board: participation step -> goal
Jun 11 12:58:08 <nlee>	[diamond]
Jun 11 12:58:14 <isforinsects>	And this email recruitment goal, then gets people to do the next cycle
Jun 11 12:58:26 <nlee>	words on board: participation step -> action statement
Jun 11 12:58:28 <isforinsects>	Ok, so ousting EU:
Jun 11 12:58:41 <isforinsects>	petition website
Jun 11 12:59:00 <mchua>	goal: ousting EU
Jun 11 12:59:17 <mchua>	action step: things we can do to achieve this goal / methods
Jun 11 12:59:23 <isforinsects>	email campaign recruitment goal
Jun 11 12:59:26 <isforinsects>	can't draw it out
Jun 11 12:59:37 <isforinsects>	but we need to draw out this recursive loop
Jun 11 12:59:52 <isforinsects>	THe first thing you need to do is break down goals into tangable steps
Jun 11 12:59:55 <isforinsects>	*tangible
Jun 11 13:00:01 <cjb>	.. ousting.. EU?  What?
Jun 11 13:00:02 <isforinsects>	Not one person can set up an entire process
Jun 11 13:00:09 <isforinsects>	cjb it's an example
Jun 11 13:00:13 <mchua>	if this loop makes sense to you, but you don't see this loop in your org, you need to find somebody who knows how to break down goals into tangible steps.
Jun 11 13:00:14 <cjb>	oh :)
Jun 11 13:00:16 <nlee>	cjb: this is our hypothetical goal to talk about process
Jun 11 13:00:27 <cjb>	odd.  ok.
Jun 11 13:00:30 <isforinsects>	Sunlight foundation, looking for these answeres
Jun 11 13:00:42 <isforinsects>	Mention Josh, govtrack.us not org
Jun 11 13:00:56 <isforinsects>	improving Thomas. X . gov
Jun 11 13:00:57 <mchua>	cjb: context was that maybe a member of the eu is trying to spread a DRM law, or such
Jun 11 13:01:03 <mchua>	cjb: "they must be stopp'd"
Jun 11 13:01:05 <isforinsects>	Josh isn't very good at setting up a structure
Jun 11 13:01:22 <isforinsects>	Give room for people to get in!
Jun 11 13:01:40 <isforinsects>	Very sort of... him controlling the means of collaboration.
Jun 11 13:01:58 <isforinsects>	Jgay: you need to have people get involved in new ways.
Jun 11 13:02:09 <isforinsects>	get people who can help you understand how to make it a community project
Jun 11 13:02:37 <isforinsects>	JoshT was going to just go to forums or something...
Jun 11 13:02:51 <isforinsects>	jgay: Josht< email me a recruiting statement
Jun 11 13:03:09 <isforinsects>	You have to build the community before you can get a community to build X
Jun 11 13:03:30 <isforinsects>	This is the bootstrapping
Jun 11 13:03:35 <isforinsects>	Into a recursive process
Jun 11 13:06:27 <isforinsects>	Stuck?
Jun 11 13:06:33 <isforinsects>	Get help from being stuck
Jun 11 13:08:03 <nlee>	SJ: how do you know what makes a good step?
Jun 11 13:08:13 <isforinsects>	jgay: because no one does it
Jun 11 13:08:20 <isforinsects>	and you didn't build up to i
Jun 11 13:09:12 <nlee>	seth: how bite sized is your participation step? vs sign petition, give feedback, etc.
Jun 11 13:09:19 <nlee>	what is largest participation step?
Jun 11 13:09:34 <nlee>	sj: OLPC has steps like start a chapter, create a bundle, solve Trac tickets
Jun 11 13:09:45 <nlee>	[obviously too big]
Jun 11 13:13:40 <nlee>	sj: [changing a little] so it seems that one of the overarching goals is to figure out action statement adn goal, and there is a bigger vision
Jun 11 13:14:22 <nlee>	my original question was what if you have a bad participation step, and it seems that there arent /bad/ steps, but you might be working in a different area [of the diagrama]
Jun 11 13:14:36 <nlee>	jgay: the worst case is that you choose poorly and people participate
Jun 11 13:14:58 <nlee>	you get people on board, and you get all these people, and you dont want to spend the energy to change their path
Jun 11 13:15:07 <nlee>	choosing smaller goals gives you flexibility
Jun 11 13:15:21 <nlee>	bigger ones can be too rigid
Jun 11 13:15:44 <nlee>	[can build around smaller goals and combine them]
Jun 11 13:16:00 <nlee>	seth: it seems like you are recruiting other people who are doing this too
Jun 11 13:16:16 <nlee>	lets say you put something on digg, you want publicity for it, send it out to people "make this big"
Jun 11 13:16:27 <nlee>	do you also try to convince these people to send on to their contacts?
Jun 11 13:16:42 <nlee>	jgay: yes, exactly, continuing to recurse in that direction
Jun 11 13:17:00 <nlee>	i can give a big example of a large project that has taken this - the GNU project
Jun 11 13:17:09 <nlee>	goal was stated, published
Jun 11 13:17:38 <nlee>	few months later, started hacking on core parts of system, bringing people in, lucky because UNIX had already bootstrapped
Jun 11 13:17:49 <nlee>	made a UNIX system that could be copied
Jun 11 13:18:17 <nlee>	determined what needed [more people involved] and how to scale recruitment
Jun 11 13:19:11 <nlee>	seth: do you think it would be better to give 1 participation step at a time, or a look at this list and pick something?
Jun 11 13:19:19 <nlee>	jgay: it depends
Jun 11 13:20:13 <nlee>	when we did campaign, we truncated everything down to 1 part of goal statement, made it all action oriented [sign this /1/ thing, digg this /1/ thing]
Jun 11 13:20:22 <nlee>	makes a very simple community
Jun 11 13:20:37 <nlee>	if you want community of mind, want all people to share a belief, idea, interest in a subject
Jun 11 13:20:58 <nlee>	we keep this growing by constantly reaching out to new people, keep it flourishing through continues dialogue about ideas
Jun 11 13:21:08 <nlee>	other communities exist, like ones based on kinship
Jun 11 13:21:11 <isforinsects>	task matching in a community of mind
Jun 11 13:21:21 <nlee>	sometimes you choose wrong kind of community, happens in env. movement
Jun 11 13:21:28 <isforinsects>	kinship and/or community of mind
Jun 11 13:21:41 <isforinsects>	kinship = connection and personal connection
Jun 11 13:21:44 <nlee>	what happens is that not a lot gets done
Jun 11 13:21:48 <isforinsects>	community of mind = actionable agreement
Jun 11 13:21:58 <nlee>	because recruitment on basis of kinship is good, but often around 1 action
Jun 11 13:22:00 <isforinsects>	environmentalists are kinship + community of mind
Jun 11 13:22:05 <nlee>	and that action goes away, what to do now?
Jun 11 13:22:22 <isforinsects>	Mind bombs
Jun 11 13:22:22 <nlee>	ex. greenpeace -> journalists focused on very specific things
Jun 11 13:22:34 <isforinsects>	nuclear disarmament symbol = mindbomb
Jun 11 13:22:55 <nlee>	built up, got to how are we going to raise funds? how to get boat?
Jun 11 13:23:00 <nlee>	did a good job reaching out
Jun 11 13:23:21 <nlee>	big change happened with people doing actions who werent working towards goal
Jun 11 13:23:35 <nlee>	they werent working towards the vision of the project, but towards their action statement
Jun 11 13:23:48 <nlee>	get people to sign up, "for what?" "to be part of greenpeace"
Jun 11 13:24:06 <nlee>	its important for people to be able to come back to the goal and vision
Jun 11 13:24:19 <nlee>	so being too narrow can be dangerous, dont /just/ say "digg this!"
Jun 11 13:26:23 <nlee>	[bringing back EU example, mentions that list ok]
Jun 11 13:26:35 <nlee>	elise: hi this is elise from borderless education
Jun 11 13:26:39 <nlee>	wants context
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Jun 11 13:26:48 <nlee>	jgay: i was actually just wrapping up...
Jun 11 13:27:13 <nlee>	francesca: will have visuals online to look at
Jun 11 13:27:29 <nlee>	jgay: disclaimer, im not sure i used the right labels for everything
Jun 11 13:27:59 <nlee>	sj: so just to clarify, because i didnt hear an answer i understood
Jun 11 13:28:26 <nlee>	in that example the goal was to oust someone, participation step had 6 or 7 options, the action statement was?
Jun 11 13:28:39 <nlee>	jgay: the statement was "digg this or send it to your friends"
Jun 11 13:28:55 <nlee>	what you want people to do, you put it up to recruit people and its often recursive
Jun 11 13:29:15 <nlee>	sj: i see, so people recruited through it do something and whatever they do is a participation step
Jun 11 13:30:01 <nlee>	jgay: i think that in a sense they seem almost a little silly, that an action statement is a participation step in itself
Jun 11 13:30:20 <nlee>	the action statement is really fleshing out how to go about achieving goal, and participation steps are making that happen
Jun 11 13:30:43 <nlee>	sj: so an action statement could involve proposed participation steps, and then people could also do other things
Jun 11 13:30:59 <nlee>	seth: brings up example of Facebook Causes app
Jun 11 13:31:17 <nlee>	francesca: OLPC needs a better, more organized presence on facebook
Jun 11 13:31:38 <nlee>	jgay: sometimes you get so caught up and you forget to reach out and get help from other people
Jun 11 13:31:56 <nlee>	"once we finish this well go on to this other thing and well get help then"
Jun 11 13:32:12 <nlee>	but sometimes things dont happen linearly and other people will work on it
Jun 11 13:32:18 <nlee>	ex. writing a book
Jun 11 13:32:46 <nlee>	2 chapters are on different things, we are working on one - do we let others work on other, or do we get caught up and fear that people will mess it up?
Jun 11 13:33:09 <nlee>	if your project stops a lot because of these things, its not really designed for participation
Jun 11 13:33:29 <nlee>	but you can go back and make ways for people to help, for example asking for feedback, ideas, etc.
Jun 11 13:33:44 <nlee>	and you go back and work on it, revise it
Jun 11 13:34:02 <nlee>	a lot of times this gets forgotten and people dont end up keeping everything current
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Jun 11 13:34:19 <nlee>	if you keep updating, you can keep recruiting, get more people
Jun 11 13:34:41 <nlee>	not everyone can help now, but will help in future [ex. students in school vs on summer break]
Jun 11 13:35:00 <nlee>	in programming world, lots of things solved by having testing branch and final branch
Jun 11 13:35:14 <nlee>	so that too many people contributing wont cause broken dependencies
Jun 11 13:35:40 <nlee>	want to find a way that people arent wasting time and being productive
Jun 11 13:35:57 <nlee>	i say this because this happens with a lot of things
Jun 11 13:36:05 <nlee>	wiki pages, education projects, software projects
Jun 11 13:36:29 <nlee>	discouraging participation for fear of breaking internal dependencies happens a lot
Jun 11 13:36:41 <nlee>	be aware of that, look for it, happens a lot in discussion thread
Jun 11 13:37:00 <nlee>	build your process to allow volunteering and involvement
Jun 11 13:37:46 <nlee>	elise: could you talk about one successful event or campaign, what you found worked well? how you measured your success?
Jun 11 13:37:57 <nlee>	jgay: yeah, ill talk about measuring success, thats an important one
Jun 11 13:38:13 <nlee>	for campaigning focus is often recruiting people to learn about something, participate in some way
Jun 11 13:38:43 <nlee>	campaign i run, Defective By Design, we do a lot of recruitment and coming up with campaigns
Jun 11 13:38:49 <nlee>	i can focus on those things
Jun 11 13:39:16 <nlee>	those our measurable results are "were going to make a mailing list and once a month it will give a bulletin/recap"
Jun 11 13:39:35 <nlee>	to solve problem of people not being aware of big picture and other campaigns, so we came up with simple monthly recap
Jun 11 13:39:48 <nlee>	wanted to get to as many people as possible, so made a widget to put on websites
Jun 11 13:40:00 <nlee>	told people to sign up, put widget on sites to get others to sign up
Jun 11 13:40:06 <nlee>	set goal of 5k people in a few months
Jun 11 13:40:17 <nlee>	and it went really well, its continuing to grow
Jun 11 13:40:26 <nlee>	so thats a very simple informational one
Jun 11 13:40:46 <nlee>	but its exciting because it feeds back, we use that bulletin to call for help, put up more ways to participate
Jun 11 13:41:05 <nlee>	made a place to talk about goals, talk about how to recruit more people, about what to work on
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Jun 11 13:42:43 <andreatl>	jgay: the demographic we tend to care more about is people who speak english in most of the projects I'm involved in, or people with a specific skill
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Jun 11 13:42:49 <andreatl>	not so much age groups or specific job types.
Jun 11 13:42:59 <andreatl>	our strategy for those is often two-part
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Jun 11 13:43:26 <andreatl>	if you have a project with high barrier to entry - need lots of skills, then you should try to find something else that more can do
Jun 11 13:43:37 <andreatl>	(such as writing a compiler for a specific platform - kind of hard)
Jun 11 13:44:19 <andreatl>	what you should do if you're having trouble reaching the right demographic, you might want to break down your goal -- generalize, take a step back. Find ways in which more people can participate.
Jun 11 13:45:08 <andreatl>	People can then learn the necessary skills, or the project will reach a new audience. Ex - You reach out to educators, and give them other types of people they can work with. This makes your demographic larger
Jun 11 13:46:17 <andreatl>	the most important bit is if you don't want to do this stuff - (can't/don't have time to write  a really compelling goal or action statement, for example) -- recruit people.
Jun 11 13:46:27 <andreatl>	They can help you make a project that's built upon this participation approach.
Jun 11 13:47:06 <andreatl>	sj: comment - timelines are useful and important (re: goals)
Jun 11 13:47:18 <andreatl>	find the right way to visualize those, and prioritize those
Jun 11 13:50:50 <andreatl>	brian: I really like the widget concept - gives you control, let's you experiment with the participation steps
Jun 11 13:51:09 <andreatl>	jgay: yeah, you need the real tools to put this in place
Jun 11 13:51:25 <andreatl>	(not really a lot of formal literature about this stuff)
Jun 11 13:51:35 <andreatl>	seth: josh - you should stop reading, and start writing one!
Jun 11 13:55:22 <andreatl>	jgay: all projects need help - many of them, however, don't make their problems very prominent, which makes it hard for people to jump in.
Jun 11 13:56:18 <andreatl>	(now talking to Elise, of Borderless Educations)
Jun 11 13:57:30 <andreatl>	e: some of the most successful techniques for finding other orgs and people at the grassroots level have been social networks, esp. college campus (student groups focusing on health, environment)
Jun 11 13:57:59 <andreatl>	for example, last april - partnered with Mass. Power Shift to promote a better environment (masspowershift.org)
Jun 11 13:58:12 <andreatl>	what we found very successful was to have a goal (as josh mentioned) and a timeline (sj)
Jun 11 13:58:28 <andreatl>	leveraged the power of the internet - a Wiki page, google docs. This allows anyone in hte organization to contribute when they had tie
Jun 11 13:58:29 <andreatl>	*time
Jun 11 13:58:35 <andreatl>	also created a facebook group
Jun 11 13:58:45 <andreatl>	viral marketing on social networks is very successful.
Jun 11 13:58:53 <andreatl>	f: have you done anything on youtube?
Jun 11 13:59:08 <andreatl>	e: we've made videos, uploaded those to youtube, and embedded them in facebook
Jun 11 13:59:21 <andreatl>	you want a variety of media - appeals to most people possible
Jun 11 13:59:44 <andreatl>	e: another thing I'd like to mention is a website (social network) but for people organizing at hte grassroots level
Jun 11 14:00:01 <andreatl>	(tacticsofhope.org)
Jun 11 14:00:09 <andreatl>	it has a mosaic on it - 4 questions
Jun 11 14:00:21 <andreatl>	who are you? what do you care about? how do you want to get involved? where are you?
Jun 11 14:00:35 <andreatl>	it puts you on a map and shows you how closely you're related to other people/orgs with your same interest, how to link up with them
Jun 11 14:00:56 <andreatl>	this is one type of model where you don't need to re-invent the wheel but get more leverage to get people
Jun 11 14:01:14 <andreatl>	another technique for non-profits (free! - for nonprofits) is using keywords on Google.
Jun 11 14:01:31 <andreatl>	you pick a few words relating to your org. - based on search terms, your site link will show up
Jun 11 14:01:48 <andreatl>	I also want to reinforce what Joshua said about having an email list and a newsletter. you really want to be communicating.
Jun 11 14:01:56 <andreatl>	you also want a link "forward to your friends"
Jun 11 14:02:09 <andreatl>	don't inundate your audience in case they unsubscribe.
Jun 11 14:02:19 <andreatl>	people really love user generated content - a blog, encourage them to provide feedback, comments
Jun 11 14:02:31 <andreatl>	this creates a shared feeling where people have a stake in the process and they feel they're making a difference
Jun 11 14:02:43 <andreatl>	this goes back to your metric for success - if you have 100 people show up, talk about it and emphasize the positives.
Jun 11 14:02:49 <andreatl>	questions?
Jun 11 14:03:08 <andreatl>	(re-iterate: tacticsofhope.org)
Jun 11 14:03:17 <andreatl>	e- it was a book, then became a website
Jun 11 14:03:33 <andreatl>	the mosaic was created because there seemed to be a need for people at the grassroots level to connect with the organizations doing the work.
Jun 11 14:04:14 <andreatl>	we are trying to publicize this in the form of a book-signing and a lecture at which I'll be speaking - July 2nd, Harvard Coop
Jun 11 14:05:56 <andreatl>	(discussion continues about the networking tactics - a widget, extent of privacy settings)
Jun 11 14:06:32 <andreatl>	(wiserearth.org) links in with this as well.
Jun 11 14:07:40 <andreatl>	brian: I see there are seven options for what I'm passionate about (tacticsofhope) - are there really only seven, or are they randomly selected?
Jun 11 14:07:59 <andreatl>	e: that's what's currently available right now, but more can be added to the mosaic based on your preferences.
Jun 11 14:08:18 <andreatl>	it's a fairly new project, so that's basically what it is. We're trying to keep it simple and broad - broad audience at first.

Seth Woodworth on community APIs

Jun 11 15:54:13 <andreatl>	(discussion on community APIs with Seth Woodworth)
Jun 11 15:54:43 <andreatl>	seth: you don't need technical skills to start a grassroots group, but you do need individuals with certain skills to get things up and running such as blogs
Jun 11 15:54:50 <andreatl>	what can we do to facilitate this process?
Jun 11 15:54:57 <andreatl>	OLPC@duke - what does your site run on?
Jun 11 15:55:16 <andreatl>	ak - Blogger. Redirects to domain name, but hosting free
Jun 11 15:55:27 <andreatl>	there is a mailing list as well.
Jun 11 15:57:01 <andreatl>	Seth: if you need a private wiki (re - local organization wikis used for event planning, etc) - I don't know how I feel about it. The tendency is to try to store stuff on it.
Jun 11 15:57:28 <andreatl>	(SJ and Seth like having this stuff more available - searchable)
Jun 11 15:57:42 <andreatl>	F: It's really hard to find stuff quickly on the OLPC@Duke blog
Jun 11 15:57:59 <andreatl>	I know what you're (AK) is working on by talking to you, but I wish it were clearer some place.
Jun 11 15:58:23 <andreatl>	AK: if you click on How to Donate, there's an explanation of the pilot program for donors. We also link from there to our proposal
Jun 11 15:58:34 <andreatl>	I agree this shouldn't necessarily be hidden in that page. I'll think about it.
Jun 11 15:59:49 <andreatl>	(discussion on websites - graphical representation)
Jun 11 16:00:17 <andreatl>	Seth: Idea is that you have a top level of 6-7 pages where you can easily find about us, who are you, where are you at, how to I get a hold of you.
Jun 11 16:00:25 <andreatl>	(emphasize) a blog is not the only tool
Jun 11 16:00:39 <andreatl>	you need some sort of hierarchical tool
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Jun 11 16:02:23 <andreatl>	(discussion about lack of this structure in OLPC Wiki - how do we find the information we want?)
Jun 11 16:04:02 <andreatl>	Seth: ILXO has a page - (reads off link structure) - Home page has some of the basic info.
Jun 11 16:04:15 <andreatl>	How can OLPC apply something like this?
Jun 11 16:04:25 <andreatl>	We're only looking at an order of magnitude of 200 some local communities.
Jun 11 16:04:41 <andreatl>	It's scalable. (idea is to reduce the number of purely blog-based communications)
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Jun 11 16:07:54 <andreatl>	SJ: it's really valuable to have a model that we can show people - I totally agree it'd be fabulous if we could find a host (for various chapter/org. domains)
Jun 11 16:10:06 <andreatl>	AK: there's still the networking aspect - facilitating communication and membership.
Jun 11 16:10:19 <andreatl>	SJ: I was thinking something that maintains blogging capabilities.
Jun 11 16:10:30 <andreatl>	Seth: I was thinking membership is through the Wiki.
Jun 11 16:10:52 <andreatl>	I mean that, we're going to have an OLPC-(region) group
Jun 11 16:11:01 <andreatl>	and there will be a hierarchy of pages that will link to this blogs.
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Jun 11 16:11:09 <andreatl>	so you can find out easily how active these groups are
Jun 11 16:11:51 <andreatl>	SJ: I'm thinking in terms of views - we have a few hundred (based on people, by group, by activity...) that we want to offer, and making this happen by hand on the wiki takes a lot of human power.
Jun 11 16:12:22 <andreatl>	SJ: (listing various potential use cases)
Jun 11 16:16:13 <andreatl>	(less consensus reached on feasibility of dynamic views on a Wiki - something targeted at a specific demographic ---> will resume transcribing when stuff moves on)
Jun 11 16:22:56 <andreatl>	al: (in regards to mailing lists) It'd be nice to have something that was more of a news digest, rather than 10 separate conversations.
Jun 11 16:23:10 <andreatl>	seth: I don't think we have any unilateral lists - no one is writing those.
Jun 11 16:23:40 <andreatl>	al: a lot of it is very specific, and not relevant to me. It's very clear that there's a group of say, 6 people, that are involved.
Jun 11 16:23:48 <andreatl>	it's like taking a forum and throwing it in your inbox.
Jun 11 16:24:12 <andreatl>	seth: it's a valid argument because things are so large. Sugar is an enormous list because there's so much going on.
Jun 11 16:24:59 <andreatl>	sj: there is a proposal on the wiki to condense our mailing lists to about 15.
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Jun 11 16:25:13 <andreatl>	and take the really high volume lists and add low traffic versions of the same.
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Jun 11 16:25:31 <andreatl>	al: it's not even a lot of content - just a lot of one sentence replies. If you could throw all that in one email, it'd be cleaner.
Jun 11 16:25:39 <andreatl>	sj: one solution is better moderation.
Jun 11 16:25:43 <andreatl>	seth: (groan)
Jun 11 16:25:50 <andreatl>	f: or just sign up for the daily digest.
Jun 11 16:28:02 <andreatl>	Seth: proposal (high and low traffic lists. High gets everything, including conversation) - low volume lists are just people making announcements, such as SJ sending out event emails.
Jun 11 16:28:27 <andreatl>	moderation is too much work - you don't send replies to the "low" list.
Jun 11 16:29:58 *	GoatCheezWork has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 11 16:30:56 <nlee>	what are reqs for creating a group at groups.laptop
Jun 11 16:31:17 <nlee>	sj: process should be adding themselves
Jun 11 16:31:23 *	morgs has quit ("Tangled up Tubes!")
Jun 11 16:31:34 <nlee>	first step - see if group already exists
Jun 11 16:31:50 <nlee>	ex there are 3 separate netherlands groups
Jun 11 16:32:07 *	mchua notes that the process of starting groups could clone the process of starting lists http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Mailing_lists#Starting_a_list
Jun 11 16:32:19 <mchua>	also, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/University_chapters#How_to_form_a_chapter
Jun 11 16:32:27 <nlee>	[conversation divergence]
Jun 11 16:32:43 <nlee>	step 2: creating a page on the wiki
Jun 11 16:33:50 <nlee>	discussion on what defines a group, sj suggest ubuntu method - define yourself, dont do anything dumb, youre a group
Jun 11 16:34:18 *	dirakx has quit ("Leaving.")
Jun 11 16:34:22 <nlee>	so, example, youre anit-velociraptor and you want to create a group
Jun 11 16:34:39 <nlee>	you search for existing groups, dont find it
Jun 11 16:34:51 <nlee>	create a page in the /right spot/ [off the groups page, presumably]
Jun 11 16:35:04 <nlee>	on groups page definitely, now
Jun 11 16:35:49 <nlee>	follow the correct template
Jun 11 16:36:04 <nlee>	[confusion about other notes on univ. chapters, resolving...]
Jun 11 16:36:31 <nlee>	ak: can we get vocabulary about whats a group, whats a chapter, etc.
Jun 11 16:36:53 <nlee>	f,sj: a chapter is a recognized group, generally location based
Jun 11 16:38:03 <nlee>	seth: ok, a group is self assigned
Jun 11 16:38:21 <nlee>	[back to structure]
Jun 11 16:38:34 <nlee>	1. see if group exists, 2. create a page off groups page
Jun 11 16:40:10 <nlee>	2a. follow template and include info box
Jun 11 16:40:20 <nlee>	2b provide valid contact
Jun 11 16:42:13 <nlee>	sj: you get most privileges if youre a group, being a chapter is good for talking to governments, hosting official events, etc.
Jun 11 16:42:37 *	Rabi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 11 16:43:17 *	RabiKarma has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 11 16:45:58 <nlee>	[conversation diverges again, CD steers back]
Jun 11 16:47:00 <nlee>	sj: the question is what we should make avaialable
Jun 11 16:47:26 <nlee>	groups can survive without it, but it makes everything harder, makes them harder to find
Jun 11 16:48:09 <nlee>	something else to provide - fundraising support for startup groups [like ILXO]
Jun 11 16:50:29 <nlee>	ok, now i dont even know whats going on anymore, because there are several different topics happening at once
Jun 11 16:50:55 <nlee>	resuming once conversation becomes focused
Jun 11 16:52:07 <nlee>	returning back to... something
Jun 11 16:52:18 <nlee>	sj: question is "what do groups need?"
Jun 11 16:52:34 <nlee>	and how do we make this organized so that its easy to track down and do
Jun 11 16:53:11 *	RabiKarma (n=RabiKarm@fw-1-user-net-flrs.cictr.com) has joined #olpc-groups
Jun 11 16:53:23 *	mchua gives up on following convo, returns to jam handbook
Jun 11 16:53:31 <nlee>	fundraising support, templates, art, presentation media, jam kits, deployment kits, volunteer matching
Jun 11 16:55:58 *	_sj_ sends warm fuzies to nlee
Jun 11 16:56:00 <_sj_>	re rabi
Jun 11 16:56:04 <_sj_>	good karma
Jun 11 16:56:20 *	nlee is moderately overwhelmed
Jun 11 16:57:42 <nlee>	now CD is heading out
Jun 11 16:59:03 <mchua>	nlee: i can take over transcription. rest your fingers a while.
Jun 11 16:59:16 <nlee>	mchua: thanks
Jun 11 16:59:28 <mchua>	(scattered conversations as Christoph leaves to go back to DC)
Jun 11 17:00:09 <mchua>	jonathan austin: ...I realy believe that olpc as an organiztion needs to have a volunteer coordinator - it's one of the focuses
Jun 11 17:00:22 <mchua>	ja: when you talk about starting to bring gropus into the organiztiaon, satellite groups - what we're talking about
Jun 11 17:00:34 <mchua>	is olpc as a hub, with all these groups coming out from it
Jun 11 17:01:18 <mchua>	sw: right, so adam holt has been getting no sleep whatsoever b/c of trying to do support, work w/ support volunteers, post g1g1
Jun 11 17:01:25 <mchua>	but if we had someone as awesome as adam, but for volunteers, that would rock
Jun 11 17:01:38 <mchua>	ja: thatw as my question - is this sometihng tha tolc watns to do?
Jun 11 17:02:37 <mchua>	mc: it's definitely being discussed, just not ready to post yet
Jun 11 17:03:17 <mchua>	too early to know status but people are interested
Jun 11 17:03:22 <mchua>	sw: so like birmingham... what ar eyou doing?
Jun 11 17:03:41 <mchua>	for example all these things that you'll be funding... 
Jun 11 17:03:50 <mchua>	there's going to be people trying to hire people to do x, y, z
Jun 11 17:03:53 <mchua>	ja: and training
Jun 11 17:04:39 <mchua>	[side conversation on what time people are heading out tonight]
Jun 11 17:05:22 <mchua>	[interrupted to relocate conf to other room]
Jun 11 17:05:28 *	mchua temp stops transcribing
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