Journal, reloaded/IRC transcript 2008-10-15

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Raw dump of IRC transcript logs of cscott's talk. Please ask for clarification if something is confusing - scott talks fast and I couldn't type everything, and typos are all over this. Mchua 18:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Oct 15 12:08:52 <mchua|xo>	Hey guys - cscott is about to start his
journal talk and I'll be transcribing as best I can in here
Oct 15 12:09:14 <mchua|xo>	Also feel free to holler if you're not
in the room but want to ask questions (pls flag with RELAY: before your
question) and I and others will try to pass it on
Oct 15 12:09:37 <tomeu> ooh, awesome
Oct 15 12:09:42 <tomeu> thanks mchua|!
Oct 15 12:09:54 <mchua|xo>	np :) repaying the favor for the many
times it's been given to me
Oct 15 12:10:51 <mchua|xo>	recording start

(From here on all unattributed lines are mchua transcribing.)

Ok
So I'm cscott and i work at olp
i;m goignto give a talk about new ideas for journal
i'll give the requisite discliaimer that a
 most of the good ideas aren't mine
borrowe great ideas from as we go
and but if i forget just assume thtait's not my idea
the second one is that when we get thorugh the actual gui stuff
none of this has gone through our designers yet
(yay capslock)
so even's going to hate that some buttons are square and some buttons
are run and...
he'll give me a good talking to late and w'ell fix that one
last, i'm deoig this on my laptop
so when we get to looking at files and stuff
we'll going to see the things that i work w whcih are nto teh thigns
that kdis work with
so most of the interesting files are going to be lik source code and
stuff bc that's what i've been working on reclently
i'm an old school unix hacker
discliamer:
for youg nkids
their files aren't really going to look like my fiels
so if i do somethign that works well for me tand is scaleable and growable
and if i let kids grow up to be bearded unix hackers
existing journal dseign
for 2 reasons - for peope watching online maybe never seen jouranl before
also design not quite implemetned yet
sowe 'll start with what it should look like
SLIDE
so we've got action view
BACKSLIDE
any questions should direct to eben
action view the thigns iv'e done itno diary form
unlike a traiditonal file manager, some of these things odn't actually
have files assoc with them
almost all of them do, and it took a lot for eben to convince me that
someone might not
i added some objects, idid some other stuff but other things like i
copied a file to my usb key
file may not be around, usb key may nto be around but it'sl there
i went and played with X, shows up n my jouranl too
expand, it shows the actual things that i've been workginw tih
so that's the cgtion view
then there's the object view whichi s a mroe rtada fm view
this are the files you av seen more or less
you can debate whether they're fiels or instances or what
chronological order, thigns i did most recently
start things that reimportant
and i have some checkboxes that can do obth operations at once
there's a search bar
i can search for anything, anyone, at any time
the right click entry will show
more detailed preview
so in may ways it would be he actual image i dcan vie details view
whichi s what that button does
(request to show previous slide)
so the title, the application ia made it in,
resume, resume with some other activity, copy to, send to, view details,
erase
(reading the text on the slide of the right click popup)
i'm not... so, I like most of this I'm not compeltely in love with it
so somef othse operations here can be doen wtih these heckboxes and if
you can sort of I'm not sure if I"m confinveced i want to rclick and
scroll down to erase
for gmail you have to click on all these things and click erase on top
then you actually get to some real examples - moving the preview icon
here is really hard
image files aren'et named, you get underscoe 546.jpeg or something
this is where wel'll we'll come back to this later on
but i'd like to see some place for a smaller preview icon, the activity
icon is important there, some peopel have tried to make hyrpcids
they'll do this iwh ta watermark over the real image
but we'll come back to that
its' a godo qeustions for design aftfer me
he's got a tool animation if I drag this I can go back in time and see
how far back ni time I'm going
that's not implemented yet
not for me
actually what I really like sthumbnail view here
this is aone page inso the i've gotall these images and i cant'really
tell what they are without mousing over them
these are thumbnail views
it would be nice if this wasn't just ani con but actually some text
from things
it's very important that if you type a search that matches nothing that
you have something come up that says no matching entries found
or they think they've broken the machine
this is the details screen which i'm not messing with at all
i love it
you can talk about it w eben
you have preview here, text here, text extensions
all the metadata you could possibly be itnerested in
something here that in ever realized before i went lokoing for it
this dropdown box here which you can - the idea is i modified it 2
mins ago
if ai clicked i'd alo see the things i did an hour ago, a long time ago
that's also parr of the big ball of wax that i'm not going to
so if we can get back gto here...
so!
lets' just say the big problem with this is - this is how it should look
it's woudl beonwderful if it actually looked at this
most kids tondt' really naem their documents well
curernt system has a bug bc if we haten' done version yet, every time
is ave somethign i get one more entry in ehre
so tehre's a whoel bunch of things that say write activity write activity
record activity
blah blahb over again there's no ingo not really godo aidea not really
contextual info to figure out wha'ts actually here
and um the avialiby to orfanige my file, very liiltea bility
so there is ome tags, there is some search function on the tags, but
it's not really exposed in thes ay tthat makes mpeopel comfy w
this is my schoolwork and ic an search fo rit
peopel who have used computjers for a logn tiem is they do hierarchical
here is one not to do
this is one mlinux like file manager
"the time traveling file manager" from kde
has a nicwe features here, the tile bar that I can drag back and forth...
so ehre's also we'll add some anecdotal stories...
from actual user expereinces, it's not just 6 years olds who finds this
we stil ahve learned files and fodlers so we propose this as the soln
to everything
inexperienced users, where inexperienced means "not unix hacker" are
havignt eh same kinds of files and folders problems that kids do
(someone) has rolled out a server across the entire city's infrasstructure
(talking about some deployment)
the thing they did that make a huge amt of diff in the # of frustrared
queries
there's a tiny little button in the...
"document as email" button
Oct 15 12:24:16 *	is4 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection
timed out))
and i can look at this document i'm looking at right now and document it
but if you actually think of all thes steps required to document somethgn
as email and send it to a friend
in most cases
i can't click just the save button
i have to do file, save as, then there's the magical...
when i go to save, they'l gvie me some random place on my filesystem
this si in openoffice, if i open any other application in my system i'll
se a different looking dialog
and now i save it, and now it's gone somewhere, i odn't know wehre
so now i hvae to close this program, I have to got...
maybe applications.. maybe my email is somewhere here
 i have eto find it ahve to open it
and then i'll have to find antoher little button that says "attach
to document"
and then I have to go through some other filepath...
it looks like this - which is looking completely different, this one
shows dotfiles too, and now I have to find...
it turns out that this one was in projects/olpc/git/joruanl2/foo b/c
that's where the last thing I was working on was
so now I have to find this.. now HI have to attach it... adn then am I
home free? maybe. I hope so.
so tisn' tnot just small kids that have probels with this
files and folders are not really a very good solution
this save everythign to the desktop and that works for a while
and then I get somethign like this
(BIG MESSY DUMP)
Oct 15 12:27:05 <cjb>	:)
and ti's hard for me to figure out what my files and folders are
Oct 15 12:27:26 <aa>	lol
Oct 15 12:27:26 <cjb>	it would be really nice to have a way to find the
things I've been working with recently that doesn't involve all this crap
Oct 15 12:27:35 <cjb>	and this is what GNOME's Journal folks are
working on
they came up with this 'recently used' thing in gnome now that...
Oct 15 12:27:43 *	cjl wonders if they are showing a picture of
my desktop
(question from egarrison that I miss)
cjl: it looks a lot like mine too ;)
Oct 15 12:28:06 <cjb>	<erik> having recently used should solve this
Oct 15 12:28:17 <cjb>	<scott> there's a separate recently-used list
for each application!
<3 cjb
ther's aost his shortcuts folder here and interesting to see largo talk
in all the desktop hes' every looke at - this is always balnekd
blank
nobody ever uses it
Oct 15 12:28:57 <cjb>	(this is the shortcuts bar in the gtkfilechooser)
so now we're rtaling about how you organize stuff
Oct 15 12:29:09 <cjb>	okay, here's a story
and the kids all like tags these days
everythign goes in exactly one place which is kind of limiting
with tags i can put thigns im ultple places
this is in my mstone folder, in my other folder
but i'm old, i' used hirarchially structuer paths everywhere
iv'e got all these dirs on mys ys already
but i oudln't come up with a good reason why this was necessary
it's like arandom selection of tags - but they had structure
so i took all the files of my laptop which has 10+ years of files
Oct 15 12:30:21 <cjb>
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Experiments_with_unordered_paths
i'm going to show them all the places where you can't jsust throw the
path componetns without order
Oct 15 12:30:27 <cjb>	(has the details of this experiments)
Oct 15 12:30:32 <cjb>	(if I got the URL right)
that bar/foo is different from foo/bar
so I wrote the script and i ran it on all my files in my /home dir
and it turned out exactly zero cases
where the ordering of tags made a difference
and my midn exploed at that point
 iwas like o crap
i've got loads of crap there
iv'e got files unpacked fiels and thingsk the gtk source tree, ltos of
things from lots of other project
so i had to rethink my world
turns out there were not exactly 0 instances
but none of them were compelling
Oct 15 12:31:33 <cjb>	sphinx project from CMU
one of them was a speech rec project that... sphinx
has because it's java, it was sphingx/test/foo
Oct 15 12:31:57 <cjb>	sphinx has sphinx/test/foo, output in
test/sphinx/foo
Oct 15 12:32:25 <cjb>	duplicate tags are important
places like debian packages
so it turns out that if you allow dup tags that gets you 90% of the
exampels go
foo foo is a different tag than just foo by itself
but you almost never need tfo use ordered paths
Oct 15 12:33:05 <cjb>	mchua|xo: your nick had me worried, I thought
you were typing (10x faster than me) on an XO keyboard :)
so this wasn't erally an envelope sketch because it's too long for an
envelope, but
SLIDE
cjb: I am cultivating my magica powers to do so next :)
so here's an idea of how you could add a little bit of better support
for tags and structures in the journal
so
here's my files
this is extremely ugly but...
in my joural tagginga nd markesr for the day to separate them works a
lot better than having a bar that looks for the exact time it was done
so I pust it in columns (today, saturday...)
so i'm e basically listing all the directoreis that stuff is in astags
which is completely ignored except if you really care
but other than that it looks gmail like
i have my fiel name, my file type
and a list of tag suggestions over here
but thew ay i got this is a list of all the tags that i've made
it's like folders
this makes it a little more discoverable (to have them on the sidebar
to left)
but so this middle section is suggestions
the most recently used stuff
or the what things have you done recnetly
so we'll talk about that more later
and that's brightly stole some epipharnies when you bookmark stuff an
ephiphny it t populates something with the most recent tags
epiphany == browser
all the peopel with fiels in your brains these are special tags with
(something) written in
so if you want tomake hierarchial structures you can
if you have a sbudirectory called activities
(oh! something == slashes)
so if I wanted to see the Activitys/ I could click this tags and i could
see allt the things that were tagged with the activityes tag that is to
say they're from that folder
i've taken evens sort of long swearch bar
and exhanged most of that spac for the search
so the idea is now who
is file tags that i wrote with chirss or whatever
and what is files i wrote in pippy
Oct 15 12:37:38 <cjb>	chirss?!? ;-)
where is really contorversioa
so here's the default place whichi s thigns that were in my jouranl
but i can use the - look in my entire filesystem
removable devices
Oct 15 12:38:15 <cjb>	can move from journal, to filesystem, to
removable devices
(usb, sd..)
(for those following along, this makes way more sense with the screenshot)
Oct 15 12:38:40 <cjb>	common deployment question:  "put this file in
this directory"
Oct 15 12:38:44 <cjb>	old journal can't do that
the old journal had no way to do things like "put this in the boot dir
of the usb stick"
so now I give it the tag "boot/"
and it's in tehre
and if i'm given a usb stick with all sorts o fmusic in the something/
dir it all comes up witht hat
(missed wad's q)
I 'd liek tot hink i could drag these tasg into these projects
usually i'd just ad mroe tags... but if I wanted to put ti to a specific
place here...
ordered tags don't matter at all in efal life
Oct 15 12:39:52 <cjb>	<wad> how do I add a subdirectory?
but i spepect that there'll be rarely many cases
Oct 15 12:40:05 <cjb>	<scott> use magic ordered tags with / on the end
so I culd put the right place int the front of this text
so i fi made a boot/ tag it also makes a boot directory
and if I don't put anythinge sle it'll put that dir in the top plevel
so maybe it does the wrnog things yand you could just drag and drop them
(to reorder i assume)
so here's when, which is the= it displays a calendar
what I really want is the widget that eben will desgin for me
it will look at the set of days we want the same zoomign interface that
we have elsewhere in the system
did id do it yesterday/ last month/ last year
Oct 15 12:41:09 <cjb>	gtkcalendarwidget doesn't let you do date region
searches, just pick one day
Oct 15 12:41:18 <cjb>	no way to select entire month
Oct 15 12:41:18 <aa>	* the smell of molten fingers fills the room *
Oct 15 12:41:23 <cjb>	:)
(mm, toasty)
but hwer are all the thigns that if you are familair with gmail
i can..
these icons are more like placeholders but ican copy them to some device,
i can move them to some device
I can delete them all
AAH!
the first thign that iw watn is "find other things like these"
something that helsp you find other thigns like these
and i think this is add tag and remove tag
these do thes ame kind of thing they do with gmail
whichis the things i selected has tags already
okay, so that's the modkup.
so I"ll take questison
and then we'll do really cool stuff
(channel? questions?)
aiee, cjb I can't lipread henry... help?
scott: the tags are really just tags
Oct 15 12:43:44 <cjb>	<henry> what happens if I remove a tag-slash?
so I've got - you'll se these in the next demo
all the thigns on the other side jsut becomes regular tags
Oct 15 12:43:59 <cjb>	<scott> the other slash tags become unordered
tags, maybe?
the other tags aren't speciali slash tags any more
and if I wanted to recreate the di structure I could drag those back
and have them hook on to the end of my tag string
if I delete the schoolwork tag, turtles is just a tag, the files get
mored into the Jouranl/ directory]
s/mored/moved
Oct 15 12:45:03 <cjl>	RELAY would tags move with files from XO to XO?
so my first idea for that...
i started thinking - waht is this really like to use?
Oct 15 12:45:24 <tomeu> RELAY so slash tags are meant just to interface
with the file system?
which is something that is tag structured, where the order of the dir
componetns don' tmater?
so all these file are in /home/olpc/blah/blah/blah
Oct 15 12:45:52 <cjb>	tomeu: yes.
cjl: will relay
Oct 15 12:46:07 <cjb>	(that's from me, not Scott)
Oct 15 12:46:24 *	isforinsects
(n=isforins@unaffiliated/isforinsects) has joined #olpc-meeting
it rusns out that i was laboring under the weight of the hierarchical
files sytem asll the time, in fact it was makng me do more work
it's basically like - well, lets' start playign around with these ideas
in a regular style
so I made a tag cd program
whenI changed dirs - i changed paths - it would suggest that in the
future you can get here mroe easily by usign thse 2 words
and it would just jump me there
so if wiat tend to get to ol/cpsugar/toolkit/solar/sugar/blah
i could just type two of them and it would drop me in
it would tll me sugar space and it woudl tell me the thigns tagged
wtih sugar
that woudl be useful
"sugar g" is probably all that's needed to get to that directory
i think it's an itneresting way to do the tagged files ystem w/o using
the joural stuff
what if we didn't need a fancy cd program
Oct 15 12:48:18 <tomeu> I guess the slides aren't on the net yet, right?
but had a fielsystem that made dirs for allt he palces you can go
so if I'm in... I wuld see all the tags in that system
tomeu: probaly not, he was modifying them right before we started :)
so I can make an mstone directory and then michael could see that stuff
Oct 15 12:49:00 <tomeu> ok, I may have more questions afterwards ;)
it has some interesting security properties
tomeu: we'll probalby ahve a better transcript afterwards too
and it tursn otu that I think that te unix security model generally
works liek this
Oct 15 12:49:23 <tomeu> oh, no video recording?
because most system services don't recursively go through these direcroeis
tomeu: video, audio, and slideshare + transcript
(separate high-qual audio)
so if i"m in a directy and I didn't want o modify inkscape or ff or
wahtever i could moutnt his tag view of the dir
but the directoires are just tags
Oct 15 12:50:09 <tomeu> awesome!
so i can tag this w video and i am in this toher program now it'll show
as tagged w video
cavallo: kids don't have preconceptions
Oct 15 12:50:58 <cjb>	cavallo: there are legitimate ideas in computing
that we want to take root
Oct 15 12:51:04 <cjb>	perhaps 'naming a file' or something like that
(and... I'm... lost with david's question - thanks cjb)
scott: global interface - if I don't... a kid starting out isn't actually
goint ohave any tags here
except maybe activities
Oct 15 12:51:40 <cjb>	cavallo: when in this model are they making tags?
Oct 15 12:51:46 <cjb>	when in their activity?
cavallo: when will they say "when do I make a tag?"
Oct 15 12:51:52 <cjb>	scott: you should talk to Eben
scott: i have a handwavy mental model - i think of gmail's subject lien
you can make a msg w/o a subject line in gmail, but they make it difficult
it 'll never force them to make a godo name
but we could gently suggest that they might do it
eben: (says something I can't hear)
Oct 15 12:53:03 <cjb>	naming is kinda orthogonal
scott: for things on my hdd - like images, i never name them, they're
img_5235.jpg
i can ignroe that... it's going to be optional
Oct 15 12:53:23 <cjb>	<eben> we might suggest naming when kids
click stop
i think ti's kind of an orthogonal issue i thinkw e can do better in
ehcouraging people to give names
Oct 15 12:53:34 <cjb>	on an activity that hasn't been named yet,
maybe give a suggestion
(cjl, haven't forgotten you - each question is taking a long time to
answer :)
scott: tags and structure - this is a key idea in computing, but i'm
not convicne the hierarchy is
i'll make a blanet statement - "they key problem I'm rying to solve is
interoperation with the outside world."
there are lots of ther machiens around someone will give you a usb key
with files on it and you'll use an aplicatiotn that hasn't been sugarized
and weird thigns happen
so what i'm trying to do is can we provide a better means to interoperate
with that when it happens
i think a common problem is that they can't find their files
cavallo: that's right - they can't find their files, not that they can't
interoperate with...
it's an all xo environment in pilots - i think that is th issue - that's
not going to generalize, to say use an usb key
so in this world interoperability across platforms might be an issue
but not there
scott: but interop for devs is important - i can't dogfood because of it
i believe this is soething that would be in the jouranl, we could use
it to grow our userbase
eben: i think we can take the jouranl and slolwoion troduce the notion
of tags i fyo u wan introcue the notion of tags... if you think of a
title with all the wrods in the title
you'rea lready thinking about the tags
so if the title... and somethign suggested tags, all of a sudden you
ahve this easy way fo clicking on things
cavallo: i took these pictures - and therea re mulitple ways of thinking
about it - but if you have kids will they be able to do stuff with the
stuf ftha'ts on the machine
nameing it ,and forcing it, and making it diffiuclt ot tona meit
adding more to the tags it at thes ame time thorugh the joruanl gets
you something
but that'ss thte use case of the kids
(multiple people talking at once)
mstone: i think you're talking about a way for people to think in many
simultaneous ways
dfa: i thin people are comig from this from a wide variety of places
to cularify what's going on here
the serach capability is alreayd implemented has been for months
where if you write a write doc and you got search yo can search for
jouranl you can search rfor text you wrote inside write
and that document wil pop up
if you wrote a memo and called it memo, if you remembered it, that's fine
tags are also the idea of tags is to be able to add searchable properties
to objects that are not inside the objct
what scott is proposing is a further refirnement
of this
gettys: imagine an entirely search-based interface
i end up stop having to file
Oct 15 13:01:23 *	dsaxena_away is now known as dsaxena
filing was an alien concept because you were so confident at beinga ble
to find everything allthe time
my observation was taht gags was the unusual thing that - when you had
a todo list on every topic
and you had to ask something where it was
and it was still going to be obvious from the content
(talking about use of gmail)
Oct 15 13:02:05 <cjb>	questions from cjb:
joe: whos' gong to teach kdis how to use it? (I think that's what
he's asking)
scott: you don't have to
Oct 15 13:02:20 <cjb>	* everyone's talking about search for text,
but not everything in the datastore is a text file
Oct 15 13:02:22 *	marcopg
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cjb+1
(scott pulling up windows left and right on his machine!)
Oct 15 13:03:07 <cjb>	* Scott did a good job of convincing us that
ordered tags aren't necessary, so I'm similarly unconvinced that they
should be in the UI
this is actually my journal - (on my computer)
Oct 15 13:03:17 <cjb>	(maybe a "filesystem activity" for that)
Oct 15 13:03:52 <cjb>	(Scott demoing new journal)
Oct 15 13:05:42 *	mchua|xo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax
IRC Client")
Oct 15 13:06:25 <cjl>	ack, we lost mchua aka our trapscriptionbot!
Oct 15 13:06:51 <tomeu> oh, I thought everybody got silent there ;)
Oct 15 13:07:06 <cjb>	using pinot for desktop search
Oct 15 13:07:10 *	aa has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Oct 15 13:07:11 <cjb>	pinot's gui is ugly
Oct 15 13:07:15 <cjb>	but the backend is nice
Oct 15 13:07:19 <cjb>	uses xapian for search
Oct 15 13:07:26 <cjb>	alternative OpenSearch backend
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Oct 15 13:07:31 <cjl>	thanks for picking up the slack cjb
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Oct 15 13:07:45 <cjb>	xapian probabilistic IR system
Oct 15 13:07:53 <cjb>	looks at context, relevance, scores
(sorry guys, battery died)
Oct 15 13:08:00 <cjb>	works like Google does
Oct 15 13:08:05 <cjb>	does magic pagerank stuf
wer'e nto using any of these extra features
Oct 15 13:08:14 <cjb>	.. but we're not actually using any of that
Oct 15 13:08:20 <cjb>	gmail doesn't use any of that
so luckily, xapian also has a v efficient bool probablitstic
serach... we're using the "under 4 feet tall" aspect of xapian
not the ferrari aspect
it does lets us find things sorted by time really fast
most things when you say sort by time it will go through all the docs
and then sort it
so all the fancy ferrariness of xapain is right there
(left sidebar)
and these terms are relevant to these
so it's nice that we have all this stuff under the hood bht altl ehf
ancy features that give you better suggestions
bht... blah blahb --> gets turned into
so it's demo time
scott: here are some questions i have
(cjl, cjb - should find some way to ask your qeustions too)
it should be easy to go back by deleting tags in your search
i'm not cnovinced this is the right wya
previews? i talked about a little - i'm not satisfied with the way
preview sare displayed
in gnome, nobody ever fills this (frequent-use) folder with useful stuff
so if i have somethign thta gives me suggestions, i mgith want to have
something here that lets me pin those in place
so this mockup has stars beside tehse places
what that does is that this stuff changes periodically but the starred
thigns are ipnned down
i'm not completely convinced w/ how this looks and feels yet
gettys: interesign questions - are these (pins) for tags, or are they
actually queries?
so the query tags i've implemented are the same who waht where when that
the ui shows and so what:pippy means what docs i imade in ppy
or i can type something out and it will do a free text search
so italked with some guys who were into semantics
so if i searched for who:chris it might also suggest good extensins of
my serach
cavallo: i18n?
scott: my plan is  to hunt down the people who have done this wt
translation systems and nail them to the wall about it
scott: if there's a complicated query you want o do you can reify the
tags to do it
cjb: ben talked about how tags arent very useful, how about images
searching for images?
scott: i put a picture as a draft... in berlin... that was a month ago...
michael: consider 2o f the larger images - facebook - search of images
of people, of faces
scott: i'm going to put that in 'semantic magic'
ben: also the most popular img seraches on the web are tagging
cjb: when you compare to gmail, gmail si all text
scott: that is true
the way gmail works - for ex; when i realized gmail wasn't doing any
relevant sorting at all, i thought it was magic but when i actually
looked under the covers after 2-3 years I didn't realize this
then when i looked at my google searches i also realized my searches
were all really really short
most people don't work like that
if they are searching for X or Y, they just search for X Y
gettys: i found i used tags less and less as time went on
as i get more and more confident to search and be able to do siple
queries, i just looked at name queries and remembering what that naemd
queries had been
scott: i think the suggestions engine is really powerful too
egarrison: legacy apps?
scott: they rock
(opens sugar-emulator)
(opens inkscape from terminal activity)
most of the things are not really sugarized
(points out buttons and the like)
now pay no attention... the magic of LD_PRELOAD, scott's going to do
something you should ignore...
(reopens inskscape with magic ld_preload thing)
hey look, it is the jouranl!
(searches through jouranl with tags)
this is the second lesson of the largo talk - there is no reason people
can't embed the journal
into their apps
this is a compeltely sep process - jouranl in pythion, inkscape != python
so you can search, journal makes the file you pick available to inkscape,
and (away you go)
you can also search for remote files as well
another lesson from largo: people don't want to learn new things, if
you can do it in the file browser you should be abel to do it in the
open windwo because maybe you realize you need to make a new folder
(starts iceweasel)
this is a non ported version
(brings up open dilaog)
and it's the journal again!
baically there is a nice abstract gtk interface for a file chooser
and we basically sub out most of it for (magic bring up the journal stuff)
the q before was how to make this work with existing things
Oct 15 13:28:04 <cjb>	journal dialog preloader is written in Vala
in most cases we just want to show the journal
scott: what if it deosnt' work? it's a dbus interface...
(simultaneous conversations i'm missing)
Oct 15 13:30:12 *	julianob (n=julianob@189.63.166.32) has joined
#olpc-meeting
(discussion outside the scope of this talk)
scott: we want to avoid the user having to learn all these different
interfaces - use the journal for everything.
scott: let's save this discussion for later i need to get through
the slides
ok. so i love amazon
or at least a9
it's a really nice thing - it defines an open search interface and things
can interoperate
with their results on that
so let's send... that's all I need to say about that atm
this is the fun part
(scott starting things on his computer...)
Oct 15 13:33:39 *	frances (n=183d3b73@olpc.osuosl.org) has joined
#olpc-meeting
so here is a search interrface, over htp
http
in theory this should only be the things i actually want to share with
other people
but the cool things about this... is that...
I can add a search engine to my web browser, and search for things
like... "puerto rico"
(he's searching on a web interface done through a9)
i can now make things that belong to my friends that look just like the
journal entries that i have
so I right clikc on chris, and i have this thing that says "look at
his file"
then i'll see the same journal interface
if my friend does not have an xo they can subscribe to some sort of feed
of my journal instead
so if i want to use this as a blog, then i tag it with 'blog' and anyone
in the world can subscribe to the (autogenerated) feed of my xo's blog...
scott: network principles -t he tricy think is that i need a name so i
can sub to an rss feed
you can see [[Network principles]] for more discussion

Oct 15 13:39:23 <mchua|xo> --- end talk ---

scott:what did i do wrong?
ben: <3 the things you've done
now they're in code form which is a huge leap
have difficulty w/ notion of tags you're using
when I work with tags I either end up with somethign that does not look
like tags or does not look like a dir structure
scott: the reason I made this mokcup is so I could use it - have
experience with it
i don't think it'll look like a dir structure
i'm hoping that this is a continuing discusson on the use of it
one thing is that there is an ambiguity around... (I missed this)
ben: the other thing is that I see less value in the syntactic
where-colon, what-colon searches
talking w eben about what sort of syntax we were actually going to use
for that
i think that's more easy, valuable
scott: i used the google terms bc many people were already using it
typing in tags is mroe error prone than being able to select from a list
of existing tags
Oct 15 13:46:06 *	adricnet
(n=adric@adsl-145-97-192.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #olpc-meeting
joe: suppose i have 2 machines, one an XO on sugar/linux, one ms windows
i take a picture, i put file in stick
i put stick in windows machine, save the file
i put stick in xo, tag, also save it
tiem passes, i forget
now in both machines i want to find my file.
what do i do?
scott: that depends on a lot of the details - where i saved it, how much
do i know about windows
if i put it on my windows desktop, it'll still be there
if tag it with 'photos' it'll still be tagged with photos
eben: it won't tag the photos for you, you can tag w anything you want
joe: so from the user's perspective, what is that?
scott: so we have some magic information here... (searches for type:/jpeg)
computer knows about metadata you might have about a jpeg file
Oct 15 13:50:37 <aa>	mchua|xo: thank so much for the transcript!
Oct 15 13:50:45 <aa>	cjb: you too
aa: np!
i'll post logs from my desktop when I get back there in ~10m
too many simul. convos going on atm.. i'm going to stop recording
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