Journal, reloaded/IRC transcript 2008-10-15

Raw dump of IRC transcript logs of cscott's talk. Please ask for clarification if something is confusing - scott talks fast and I couldn't type everything, and typos are all over this. Mchua 18:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Oct 15 12:08:52 <mchua|xo>	Hey guys - cscott is about to sta
rt his journal talk and I'll be transcribing as best I can i
n here

Oct 15 12:09:14 <mchua|xo>	Also feel free to holler if you'r
e not in the room but want to ask questions (pls flag with R
ELAY: before your question) and I and others will try to pas
s it on

Oct 15 12:09:37 <tomeu>	ooh, awesome

Oct 15 12:09:42 <tomeu>	thanks mchua|!

Oct 15 12:09:54 <mchua|xo>	np :) repaying the favor for the 
many times it's been given to me

Oct 15 12:10:51 <mchua|xo>	recording start

Oct 15 12:11:10 <mchua|xo>	Ok

Oct 15 12:11:14 <mchua|xo>	So I'm cscott and i work at olp

Oct 15 12:11:20 <mchua|xo>	i;m goignto give a talk about new
 ideas for journal

Oct 15 12:11:25 <mchua|xo>	i'll give the requisite discliaim
er that a

Oct 15 12:11:28 <mchua|xo>	 most of the good ideas aren't mi
ne

Oct 15 12:11:38 <mchua|xo>	BORROWE GREAT IDEAS FROM AS WE GO

Oct 15 12:11:43 <mchua|xo>	AND BUT IF I FORGET JUST ASSUME T
HTAIT'S NOT MY IDEA

Oct 15 12:11:48 <mchua|xo>	THE SECOND ONE IS THAT WHEN WE GE
T THORUGH THE ACTUAL GUI STUFF

Oct 15 12:11:55 <mchua|xo>	none of this has gone through our
 designers yet

Oct 15 12:11:56 <mchua|xo>	(yay capslock)

Oct 15 12:12:04 <mchua|xo>	so even's going to hate that some
 buttons are square and some buttons are run and...

Oct 15 12:12:09 <mchua|xo>	he'll give me a good talking to l
ate and w'ell fix that one

Oct 15 12:12:13 <mchua|xo>	last, i'm deoig this on my laptop

Oct 15 12:12:17 <mchua|xo>	so when we get to looking at file
s and stuff

Oct 15 12:12:26 <mchua|xo>	we'll going to see the things tha
t i work w whcih are nto teh thigns that kdis work with

Oct 15 12:12:36 <mchua|xo>	so most of the interesting files 
are going to be lik source code and stuff bc that's what i'v
e been working on reclently

Oct 15 12:12:39 <mchua|xo>	i'm an old school unix hacker

Oct 15 12:12:40 <mchua|xo>	discliamer:

Oct 15 12:12:41 <mchua|xo>	for youg nkids

Oct 15 12:12:47 <mchua|xo>	their files aren't really going t
o look like my fiels

Oct 15 12:13:05 <mchua|xo>	so if i do somethign that works w
ell for me tand is scaleable and growable and if i let kids 
grow up to be bearded unix hackers

Oct 15 12:13:09 <mchua|xo>	existing journal dseign

Oct 15 12:13:16 <mchua|xo>	for 2 reasons - for peope watchin
g online maybe never seen jouranl before

Oct 15 12:13:20 <mchua|xo>	also design not quite implemetned
 yet

Oct 15 12:13:25 <mchua|xo>	sowe 'll start with what it shoul
d look like

Oct 15 12:13:36 <mchua|xo>	SLIDE

Oct 15 12:13:44 <mchua|xo>	so we've got action view

Oct 15 12:13:46 <mchua|xo>	BACKSLIDE

Oct 15 12:13:50 <mchua|xo>	any questions should direct to eb
en

Oct 15 12:13:57 <mchua|xo>	action view the thigns iv'e done 
itno diary form

Oct 15 12:14:04 <mchua|xo>	unlike a traiditonal file manager
, some of these things odn't actually have files assoc with 
them

Oct 15 12:14:10 <mchua|xo>	almost all of them do, and it too
k a lot for eben to convince me that someone might not

Oct 15 12:14:26 <mchua|xo>	i added some objects, idid some o
ther stuff but other things like i copied a file to my usb k
ey

Oct 15 12:14:32 <mchua|xo>	file may not be around, usb key m
ay nto be around but it'sl there

Oct 15 12:14:40 <mchua|xo>	i went and played with X, shows u
p n my jouranl too

Oct 15 12:14:55 <mchua|xo>	expand, it shows the actual thing
s that i've been workginw tih

Oct 15 12:14:57 <mchua|xo>	so that's the cgtion view

Oct 15 12:15:02 <mchua|xo>	then there's the object view whic
hi s a mroe rtada fm view

Oct 15 12:15:07 <mchua|xo>	this are the files you av seen mo
re or less

Oct 15 12:15:12 <mchua|xo>	you can debate whether they're fi
els or instances or what

Oct 15 12:15:16 <mchua|xo>	chronological order, thigns i did
 most recently

Oct 15 12:15:18 <mchua|xo>	start things that reimportant

Oct 15 12:15:25 <mchua|xo>	and i have some checkboxes that c
an do obth operations at once

Oct 15 12:15:27 <mchua|xo>	there's a search bar

Oct 15 12:15:31 <mchua|xo>	i can search for anything, anyone
, at any time

Oct 15 12:15:39 <mchua|xo>	the right click entry will show

Oct 15 12:15:41 <mchua|xo>	more detailed preview

Oct 15 12:15:53 <mchua|xo>	so in may ways it would be he act
ual image i dcan vie details view

Oct 15 12:15:55 <mchua|xo>	whichi s what that button does

Oct 15 12:16:07 <mchua|xo>	(request to show previous slide)

Oct 15 12:16:13 <mchua|xo>	so the title, the application ia 
made it in,

Oct 15 12:16:21 <mchua|xo>	resume, resume with some other ac
tivity, copy to, send to, view details, erase

Oct 15 12:16:29 <mchua|xo>	(reading the text on the slide of
 the right click popup)

Oct 15 12:16:43 <mchua|xo>	i'm not... so, I like most of thi
s I'm not compeltely in love with it

Oct 15 12:17:04 <mchua|xo>	so somef othse operations here ca
n be doen wtih these heckboxes and if you can sort of I'm no
t sure if I"m confinveced i want to rclick and scroll down t
o erase

Oct 15 12:17:14 <mchua|xo>	for gmail you have to click on al
l these things and click erase on top

Oct 15 12:17:29 <mchua|xo>	then you actually get to some rea
l examples - moving the preview icon here is really hard

Oct 15 12:17:45 <mchua|xo>	image files aren'et named, you ge
t underscoe 546.jpeg or something

Oct 15 12:17:54 <mchua|xo>	this is where wel'll we'll come b
ack to this later on

Oct 15 12:18:11 <mchua|xo>	but i'd like to see some place fo
r a smaller preview icon, the activity icon is important the
re, some peopel have tried to make hyrpcids

Oct 15 12:18:15 <mchua|xo>	they'll do this iwh ta watermark 
over the real image

Oct 15 12:18:18 <mchua|xo>	but we'll come back to that

Oct 15 12:18:25 <mchua|xo>	its' a godo qeustions for design 
aftfer me

Oct 15 12:18:41 <mchua|xo>	he's got a tool animation if I dr
ag this I can go back in time and see how far back ni time I
'm going

Oct 15 12:18:44 <mchua|xo>	that's not implemented yet

Oct 15 12:18:45 <mchua|xo>	not for me

Oct 15 12:18:50 <mchua|xo>	actually what I really like sthum
bnail view here

Oct 15 12:19:02 <mchua|xo>	this is aone page inso the i've g
otall these images and i cant'really tell what they are with
out mousing over them

Oct 15 12:19:04 <mchua|xo>	these are thumbnail views

Oct 15 12:19:11 <mchua|xo>	it would be nice if this wasn't j
ust ani con but actually some text from things

Oct 15 12:19:41 <mchua|xo>	it's very important that if you t
ype a search that matches nothing that you have something co
me up that says no matching entries found

Oct 15 12:19:47 <mchua|xo>	or they think they've broken the 
machine

Oct 15 12:19:53 <mchua|xo>	this is the details screen which 
i'm not messing with at all

Oct 15 12:19:54 <mchua|xo>	i love it

Oct 15 12:19:58 <mchua|xo>	you can talk about it w eben

Oct 15 12:20:04 <mchua|xo>	you have preview here, text here,
 text extensions

Oct 15 12:20:09 <mchua|xo>	all the metadata you could possib
ly be itnerested in

Oct 15 12:20:15 <mchua|xo>	something here that in ever reali
zed before i went lokoing for it

Oct 15 12:20:23 <mchua|xo>	this dropdown box here which you 
can - the idea is i modified it 2 mins ago

Oct 15 12:20:34 <mchua|xo>	if ai clicked i'd alo see the thi
ngs i did an hour ago, a long time ago

Oct 15 12:20:45 <mchua|xo>	that's also parr of the big ball 
of wax that i'm not going to

Oct 15 12:21:02 <mchua|xo>	so if we can get back gto here...

Oct 15 12:21:03 <mchua|xo>	so!

Oct 15 12:21:09 <mchua|xo>	lets' just say the big problem wi
th this is - this is how it should look

Oct 15 12:21:14 <mchua|xo>	it's woudl beonwderful if it actu
ally looked at this

Oct 15 12:21:18 <mchua|xo>	most kids tondt' really naem thei
r documents well

Oct 15 12:21:33 <mchua|xo>	curernt system has a bug bc if we
 haten' done version yet, every time is ave somethign i get 
one more entry in ehre

Oct 15 12:21:42 <mchua|xo>	so tehre's a whoel bunch of thing
s that say write activity write activity record activity

Oct 15 12:21:52 <mchua|xo>	blah blahb over again there's no 
ingo not really godo aidea not really contextual info to fig
ure out wha'ts actually here

Oct 15 12:21:58 <mchua|xo>	and um the avialiby to orfanige m
y file, very liiltea bility

Oct 15 12:22:10 <mchua|xo>	so there is ome tags, there is so
me search function on the tags, but it's not really exposed 
in thes ay tthat makes mpeopel comfy w

Oct 15 12:22:14 <mchua|xo>	this is my schoolwork and ic an s
earch fo rit

Oct 15 12:22:26 <mchua|xo>	peopel who have used computjers f
or a logn tiem is they do hierarchical

Oct 15 12:22:31 <mchua|xo>	here is one not to do

Oct 15 12:22:35 <mchua|xo>	this is one mlinux like file mana
ger

Oct 15 12:22:42 <mchua|xo>	"the time traveling file manager"
 from kde

Oct 15 12:22:50 <mchua|xo>	has a nicwe features here, the ti
le bar that I can drag back and forth...

Oct 15 12:23:02 <mchua|xo>	so ehre's also we'll add some ane
cdotal stories...

Oct 15 12:23:10 <mchua|xo>	from actual user expereinces, it'
s not just 6 years olds who finds this

Oct 15 12:23:18 <mchua|xo>	we stil ahve learned files and fo
dlers so we propose this as the soln to everything

Oct 15 12:23:38 <mchua|xo>	inexperienced users, where inexpe
rienced means "not unix hacker" are havignt eh same kinds of
 files and folders problems that kids do

Oct 15 12:23:54 <mchua|xo>	(someone) has rolled out a server
 across the entire city's infrasstructure (talking about som
e deployment)

Oct 15 12:24:03 <mchua|xo>	the thing they did that make a hu
ge amt of diff in the # of frustrared queries

Oct 15 12:24:11 <mchua|xo>	there's a tiny little button in t
he...

Oct 15 12:24:15 <mchua|xo>	"document as email" button

Oct 15 12:24:16 *	is4 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection 
timed out))

Oct 15 12:24:22 <mchua|xo>	and i can look at this document i
'm looking at right now and document it

Oct 15 12:24:36 <mchua|xo>	but if you actually think of all 
thes steps required to document somethgn as email and send i
t to a friend

Oct 15 12:24:38 <mchua|xo>	in most cases

Oct 15 12:24:44 <mchua|xo>	i can't click just the save butto
n

Oct 15 12:24:49 <mchua|xo>	i have to do file, save as, then 
there's the magical...

Oct 15 12:25:01 <mchua|xo>	when i go to save, they'l gvie me
 some random place on my filesystem

Oct 15 12:25:21 <mchua|xo>	this si in openoffice, if i open 
any other application in my system i'll se a different looki
ng dialog

Oct 15 12:25:28 <mchua|xo>	and now i save it, and now it's g
one somewhere, i odn't know wehre

Oct 15 12:25:35 <mchua|xo>	so now i hvae to close this progr
am, I have to got...

Oct 15 12:25:39 <mchua|xo>	maybe applications.. maybe my ema
il is somewhere here

Oct 15 12:25:42 <mchua|xo>	 i have eto find it ahve to open 
it

Oct 15 12:25:52 <mchua|xo>	and then i'll have to find antohe
r little button that says "attach to document"

Oct 15 12:25:57 <mchua|xo>	and then I have to go through som
e other filepath...

Oct 15 12:26:12 <mchua|xo>	it looks like this - which is loo
king completely different, this one shows dotfiles too, and 
now I have to find...

Oct 15 12:26:25 <mchua|xo>	it turns out that this one was in
 projects/olpc/git/joruanl2/foo b/c that's where the last th
ing I was working on was

Oct 15 12:26:36 <mchua|xo>	so now I have to find this.. now 
HI have to attach it... adn then am I home free? maybe. I ho
pe so.

Oct 15 12:26:44 <mchua|xo>	so tisn' tnot just small kids tha
t have probels with this

Oct 15 12:26:47 <mchua|xo>	files and folders are not really 
a very good solution

Oct 15 12:26:54 <mchua|xo>	this save everythign to the deskt
op and that works for a while

Oct 15 12:26:57 <mchua|xo>	and then I get somethign like thi
s

Oct 15 12:27:00 <mchua|xo>	(BIG MESSY DUMP)

Oct 15 12:27:05 <cjb>	:)

Oct 15 12:27:07 <mchua|xo>	and ti's hard for me to figure ou
t what my files and folders are

Oct 15 12:27:26 <aa>	lol

Oct 15 12:27:26 <cjb>	it would be really nice to have a way 
to find the things I've been working with recently that does
n't involve all this crap

Oct 15 12:27:35 <cjb>	and this is what GNOME's Journal folks
 are working on

Oct 15 12:27:37 <mchua|xo>	they came up with this 'recently 
used' thing in gnome now that...

Oct 15 12:27:43 *	cjl wonders if they are showing a picture 
of my desktop

Oct 15 12:27:51 <mchua|xo>	(question from egarrison that I m
iss)

Oct 15 12:28:00 <mchua|xo>	cjl: it looks a lot like mine too
 ;)

Oct 15 12:28:06 <cjb>	<erik> having recently used should sol
ve this

Oct 15 12:28:17 <cjb>	<scott> there's a separate recently-us
ed list for each application!

Oct 15 12:28:25 <mchua|xo>	<3 cjb

Oct 15 12:28:33 <mchua|xo>	ther's aost his shortcuts folder 
here and interesting to see largo talk

Oct 15 12:28:43 <mchua|xo>	in all the desktop hes' every loo
ke at - this is always balnekd

Oct 15 12:28:45 <mchua|xo>	blank

Oct 15 12:28:49 <mchua|xo>	nobody ever uses it

Oct 15 12:28:57 <cjb>	(this is the shortcuts bar in the gtkf
ilechooser)

Oct 15 12:29:06 <mchua|xo>	so now we're rtaling about how yo
u organize stuff

Oct 15 12:29:09 <cjb>	okay, here's a story

Oct 15 12:29:12 <mchua|xo>	and the kids all like tags these 
days

Oct 15 12:29:21 <mchua|xo>	everythign goes in exactly one pl
ace which is kind of limiting

Oct 15 12:29:25 <mchua|xo>	with tags i can put thigns im ult
ple places

Oct 15 12:29:30 <mchua|xo>	this is in my mstone folder, in m
y other folder

Oct 15 12:29:37 <mchua|xo>	but i'm old, i' used hirarchially
 structuer paths everywhere

Oct 15 12:29:44 <mchua|xo>	iv'e got all these dirs on mys ys
 already

Oct 15 12:29:49 <mchua|xo>	but i oudln't come up with a good
 reason why this was necessary

Oct 15 12:29:58 <mchua|xo>	it's like arandom selection of ta
gs - but they had structure

Oct 15 12:30:07 <mchua|xo>	so i took all the files of my lap
top which has 10+ years of files

Oct 15 12:30:21 <cjb>	http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Experiments_
with_unordered_paths

Oct 15 12:30:23 <mchua|xo>	i'm going to show them all the pl
aces where you can't jsust throw the path componetns without
 order

Oct 15 12:30:27 <cjb>	(has the details of this experiments)

Oct 15 12:30:32 <cjb>	(if I got the URL right)

Oct 15 12:30:33 <mchua|xo>	that bar/foo is different from fo
o/bar

Oct 15 12:30:40 <mchua|xo>	so I wrote the script and i ran i
t on all my files in my /home dir

Oct 15 12:30:45 <mchua|xo>	and it turned out exactly zero ca
ses

Oct 15 12:30:48 <mchua|xo>	where the ordering of tags made a
 difference

Oct 15 12:30:52 <mchua|xo>	and my midn exploed at that point

Oct 15 12:30:55 <mchua|xo>	 iwas like o crap

Oct 15 12:31:05 <mchua|xo>	i've got loads of crap there

Oct 15 12:31:14 <mchua|xo>	iv'e got files unpacked fiels and
 thingsk the gtk source tree, ltos of things from lots of ot
her project

Oct 15 12:31:17 <mchua|xo>	so i had to rethink my world

Oct 15 12:31:23 <mchua|xo>	turns out there were not exactly 
0 instances

Oct 15 12:31:28 <mchua|xo>	but none of them were compelling

Oct 15 12:31:33 <cjb>	sphinx project from CMU

Oct 15 12:31:43 <mchua|xo>	one of them was a speech rec proj
ect that... sphinx

Oct 15 12:31:53 <mchua|xo>	has because it's java, it was sph
ingx/test/foo

Oct 15 12:31:57 <cjb>	sphinx has sphinx/test/foo, output in 
test/sphinx/foo

Oct 15 12:32:25 <cjb>	duplicate tags are important

Oct 15 12:32:33 <mchua|xo>	places like debian packages

Oct 15 12:32:50 <mchua|xo>	so it turns out that if you allow
 dup tags that gets you 90% of the exampels go

Oct 15 12:32:55 <mchua|xo>	foo foo is a different tag than j
ust foo by itself

Oct 15 12:33:00 <mchua|xo>	but you almost never need tfo use
 ordered paths

Oct 15 12:33:05 <cjb>	mchua|xo: your nick had me worried, I 
thought you were typing (10x faster than me) on an XO keyboa
rd :)

Oct 15 12:33:22 <mchua|xo>	so this wasn't erally an envelope
 sketch because it's too long for an envelope, but

Oct 15 12:33:23 <mchua|xo>	SLIDE

Oct 15 12:33:35 <mchua|xo>	cjb: I am cultivating my magica p
owers to do so next :)

Oct 15 12:33:44 <mchua|xo>	so here's an idea of how you coul
d add a little bit of better support for tags and structures
 in the journal

Oct 15 12:33:45 <mchua|xo>	so

Oct 15 12:33:46 <mchua|xo>	here's my files

Oct 15 12:33:49 <mchua|xo>	this is extremely ugly but...

Oct 15 12:34:06 <mchua|xo>	in my joural tagginga nd markesr 
for the day to separate them works a lot better than having 
a bar that looks for the exact time it was done

Oct 15 12:34:13 <mchua|xo>	so I pust it in columns (today, s
aturday...)

Oct 15 12:34:27 <mchua|xo>	so i'm e basically listing all th
e directoreis that stuff is in astags

Oct 15 12:34:36 <mchua|xo>	which is completely ignored excep
t if you really care

Oct 15 12:34:39 <mchua|xo>	but other than that it looks gmai
l like

Oct 15 12:34:44 <mchua|xo>	i have my fiel name, my file type

Oct 15 12:34:47 <mchua|xo>	and a list of tag suggestions ove
r here

Oct 15 12:34:55 <mchua|xo>	but thew ay i got this is a list 
of all the tags that i've made

Oct 15 12:34:57 <mchua|xo>	it's like folders

Oct 15 12:35:12 <mchua|xo>	this makes it a little more disco
verable (to have them on the sidebar to left)

Oct 15 12:35:35 <mchua|xo>	but so this middle section is sug
gestions

Oct 15 12:35:37 <mchua|xo>	the most recently used stuff

Oct 15 12:35:41 <mchua|xo>	or the what things have you done 
recnetly

Oct 15 12:35:43 <mchua|xo>	so we'll talk about that more lat
er

Oct 15 12:36:00 <mchua|xo>	and that's brightly stole some ep
ipharnies when you bookmark stuff an ephiphny it t populates
 something with the most recent tags

Oct 15 12:36:03 <mchua|xo>	epiphany == browser

Oct 15 12:36:23 <mchua|xo>	all the peopel with fiels in your
 brains these are special tags with (something) written in

Oct 15 12:36:27 <mchua|xo>	so if you want tomake hierarchial
 structures you can

Oct 15 12:36:37 <mchua|xo>	if you have a sbudirectory called
 activities

Oct 15 12:36:41 <mchua|xo>	(oh! something == slashes)

Oct 15 12:37:04 <mchua|xo>	so if I wanted to see the Activit
ys/ I could click this tags and i could see allt the things 
that were tagged with the activityes tag that is to say they
're from that folder

Oct 15 12:37:10 <mchua|xo>	i've taken evens sort of long swe
arch bar

Oct 15 12:37:14 <mchua|xo>	and exhanged most of that spac fo
r the search

Oct 15 12:37:23 <mchua|xo>	so the idea is now who

Oct 15 12:37:28 <mchua|xo>	is file tags that i wrote with ch
irss or whatever

Oct 15 12:37:33 <mchua|xo>	and what is files i wrote in pipp
y

Oct 15 12:37:38 <cjb>	chirss?!? ;-)

Oct 15 12:37:41 <mchua|xo>	where is really contorversioa

Oct 15 12:37:47 <mchua|xo>	so here's the default place which
i s thigns that were in my jouranl

Oct 15 12:37:53 <mchua|xo>	but i can use the - look in my en
tire filesystem

Oct 15 12:38:08 <mchua|xo>	removable devices

Oct 15 12:38:15 <cjb>	can move from journal, to filesystem, 
to removable devices

Oct 15 12:38:19 <mchua|xo>	(usb, sd..)

Oct 15 12:38:31 <mchua|xo>	(for those following along, this 
makes way more sense with the screenshot)

Oct 15 12:38:40 <cjb>	common deployment question:  "put this
 file in this directory"

Oct 15 12:38:44 <cjb>	old journal can't do that

Oct 15 12:38:47 <mchua|xo>	the old journal had no way to do 
things like "put this in the boot dir of the usb stick"

Oct 15 12:38:53 <mchua|xo>	so now I give it the tag "boot/"

Oct 15 12:38:56 <mchua|xo>	and it's in tehre

Oct 15 12:39:11 <mchua|xo>	and if i'm given a usb stick with
 all sorts o fmusic in the something/ dir it all comes up wi
tht hat

Oct 15 12:39:24 <mchua|xo>	(missed wad's q)

Oct 15 12:39:33 <mchua|xo>	I 'd liek tot hink i could drag t
hese tasg into these projects

Oct 15 12:39:45 <mchua|xo>	usually i'd just ad mroe tags... 
but if I wanted to put ti to a specific place here...

Oct 15 12:39:50 <mchua|xo>	ordered tags don't matter at all 
in efal life

Oct 15 12:39:52 <cjb>	<wad> how do I add a subdirectory?

Oct 15 12:39:55 <mchua|xo>	but i spepect that there'll be ra
rely many cases

Oct 15 12:40:05 <cjb>	<scott> use magic ordered tags with / 
on the end

Oct 15 12:40:05 <mchua|xo>	so I culd put the right place int
 the front of this text

Oct 15 12:40:13 <mchua|xo>	so i fi made a boot/ tag it also 
makes a boot directory

Oct 15 12:40:18 <mchua|xo>	and if I don't put anythinge sle 
it'll put that dir in the top plevel

Oct 15 12:40:36 <mchua|xo>	so maybe it does the wrnog things
 yand you could just drag and drop them (to reorder i assume
)

Oct 15 12:40:44 <mchua|xo>	so here's when, which is the= it 
displays a calendar

Oct 15 12:40:52 <mchua|xo>	what I really want is the widget 
that eben will desgin for me

Oct 15 12:41:01 <mchua|xo>	it will look at the set of days w
e want the same zoomign interface that we have elsewhere in 
the system

Oct 15 12:41:08 <mchua|xo>	did id do it yesterday/ last mont
h/ last year

Oct 15 12:41:09 <cjb>	gtkcalendarwidget doesn't let you do d
ate region searches, just pick one day

Oct 15 12:41:18 <cjb>	no way to select entire month

Oct 15 12:41:18 <aa>	* the smell of molten fingers fills the
 room *

Oct 15 12:41:23 <cjb>	:)

Oct 15 12:41:28 <mchua|xo>	(mm, toasty)

Oct 15 12:41:42 <mchua|xo>	but hwer are all the thigns that 
if you are familair with gmail

Oct 15 12:41:50 <mchua|xo>	i can..

Oct 15 12:41:59 <mchua|xo>	these icons are more like placeho
lders but ican copy them to some device, i can move them to 
some device

Oct 15 12:42:04 <mchua|xo>	I can delete them all

Oct 15 12:42:05 <mchua|xo>	AAH!

Oct 15 12:42:22 <mchua|xo>	the first thign that iw watn is "
find other things like these"

Oct 15 12:42:27 <mchua|xo>	something that helsp you find oth
er thigns like these

Oct 15 12:42:30 <mchua|xo>	and i think this is add tag and r
emove tag

Oct 15 12:42:34 <mchua|xo>	these do thes ame kind of thing t
hey do with gmail

Oct 15 12:42:39 <mchua|xo>	whichis the things i selected has
 tags already

Oct 15 12:42:51 <mchua|xo>	okay, so that's the modkup.

Oct 15 12:42:53 <mchua|xo>	so I"ll take questison

Oct 15 12:42:56 <mchua|xo>	and then we'll do really cool stu
ff

Oct 15 12:42:59 <mchua|xo>	(channel? questions?)

Oct 15 12:43:30 <mchua|xo>	aiee, cjb I can't lipread henry..
. help?

Oct 15 12:43:41 <mchua|xo>	scott: the tags are really just t
ags

Oct 15 12:43:44 <cjb>	<henry> what happens if I remove a tag
-slash?

Oct 15 12:43:45 <mchua|xo>	so I've got - you'll se these in 
the next demo

Oct 15 12:43:52 <mchua|xo>	all the thigns on the other side 
jsut becomes regular tags

Oct 15 12:43:59 <cjb>	<scott> the other slash tags become un
ordered tags, maybe?

Oct 15 12:44:00 <mchua|xo>	the other tags aren't speciali sl
ash tags any more

Oct 15 12:44:07 <mchua|xo>	and if I wanted to recreate the d
i structure I could drag those back and have them hook on to
 the end of my tag string

Oct 15 12:44:28 <mchua|xo>	if I delete the schoolwork tag, t
urtles is just a tag, the files get mored into the Jouranl/ 
directory]

Oct 15 12:44:44 <mchua|xo>	s/mored/moved

Oct 15 12:45:03 <cjl>	RELAY would tags move with files from 
XO to XO?

Oct 15 12:45:17 <mchua|xo>	so my first idea for that...

Oct 15 12:45:24 <mchua|xo>	i started thinking - waht is this
 really like to use?

Oct 15 12:45:24 <tomeu>	RELAY so slash tags are meant just t
o interface with the file system?

Oct 15 12:45:33 <mchua|xo>	which is something that is tag st
ructured, where the order of the dir componetns don' tmater?

Oct 15 12:45:48 <mchua|xo>	so all these file are in /home/ol
pc/blah/blah/blah

Oct 15 12:45:52 <cjb>	tomeu: yes.

Oct 15 12:46:04 <mchua|xo>	cjl: will relay

Oct 15 12:46:07 <cjb>	(that's from me, not Scott)

Oct 15 12:46:24 *	isforinsects (n=isforins@unaffiliated/isfo
rinsects) has joined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 12:46:38 <mchua|xo>	it rusns out that i was laboring 
under the weight of the hierarchical files sytem asll the ti
me, in fact it was makng me do more work

Oct 15 12:46:55 <mchua|xo>	it's basically like - well, lets'
 start playign around with these ideas in a regular style

Oct 15 12:46:58 <mchua|xo>	so I made a tag cd program

Oct 15 12:47:13 <mchua|xo>	whenI changed dirs - i changed pa
ths - it would suggest that in the future you can get here m
roe easily by usign thse 2 words

Oct 15 12:47:17 <mchua|xo>	and it would just jump me there

Oct 15 12:47:25 <mchua|xo>	so if wiat tend to get to ol/cpsu
gar/toolkit/solar/sugar/blah

Oct 15 12:47:31 <mchua|xo>	i could just type two of them and
 it would drop me in

Oct 15 12:47:41 <mchua|xo>	it would tll me sugar space and i
t woudl tell me the thigns tagged wtih sugar

Oct 15 12:47:43 <mchua|xo>	that woudl be useful

Oct 15 12:47:58 <mchua|xo>	"sugar g" is probably all that's 
needed to get to that directory

Oct 15 12:48:08 <mchua|xo>	i think it's an itneresting way t
o do the tagged files ystem w/o using the joural stuff

Oct 15 12:48:13 <mchua|xo>	what if we didn't need a fancy cd
 program

Oct 15 12:48:18 <tomeu>	I guess the slides aren't on the net
 yet, right?

Oct 15 12:48:20 <mchua|xo>	but had a fielsystem that made di
rs for allt he palces you can go

Oct 15 12:48:32 <mchua|xo>	so if I'm in... I wuld see all th
e tags in that system

Oct 15 12:48:39 <mchua|xo>	tomeu: probaly not, he was modify
ing them right before we started :)

Oct 15 12:49:00 <mchua|xo>	so I can make an mstone directory
 and then michael could see that stuff

Oct 15 12:49:00 <tomeu>	ok, I may have more questions afterw
ards ;)

Oct 15 12:49:04 <mchua|xo>	it has some interesting security 
properties

Oct 15 12:49:10 <mchua|xo>	tomeu: we'll probalby ahve a bett
er transcript afterwards too

Oct 15 12:49:22 <mchua|xo>	and it tursn otu that I think tha
t te unix security model generally works liek this

Oct 15 12:49:23 <tomeu>	oh, no video recording?

Oct 15 12:49:32 <mchua|xo>	because most system services don'
t recursively go through these direcroeis

Oct 15 12:49:41 <mchua|xo>	tomeu: video, audio, and slidesha
re + transcript

Oct 15 12:49:44 <mchua|xo>	(separate high-qual audio)

Oct 15 12:50:00 <mchua|xo>	so if i"m in a directy and I didn
't want o modify inkscape or ff or wahtever i could moutnt h
is tag view of the dir

Oct 15 12:50:02 <mchua|xo>	but the directoires are just tags

Oct 15 12:50:09 <tomeu>	awesome!

Oct 15 12:50:18 <mchua|xo>	so i can tag this w video and i a
m in this toher program now it'll show as tagged w video

Oct 15 12:50:42 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: kids don't have preconce
ptions

Oct 15 12:50:58 <cjb>	cavallo: there are legitimate ideas in
 computing that we want to take root

Oct 15 12:51:04 <cjb>	perhaps 'naming a file' or something l
ike that

Oct 15 12:51:15 <mchua|xo>	(and... I'm... lost with david's 
question - thanks cjb)

Oct 15 12:51:30 <mchua|xo>	scott: global interface - if I do
n't... a kid starting out isn't actually goint ohave any tag
s here

Oct 15 12:51:32 <mchua|xo>	except maybe activities

Oct 15 12:51:40 <cjb>	cavallo: when in this model are they m
aking tags?

Oct 15 12:51:46 <cjb>	when in their activity?

Oct 15 12:51:51 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: when will they say "when
 do I make a tag?"

Oct 15 12:51:52 <cjb>	scott: you should talk to Eben

Oct 15 12:52:02 <mchua|xo>	scott: i have a handwavy mental m
odel - i think of gmail's subject lien

Oct 15 12:52:11 <mchua|xo>	you can make a msg w/o a subject 
line in gmail, but they make it difficult

Oct 15 12:52:15 <mchua|xo>	it 'll never force them to make a
 godo name

Oct 15 12:52:20 <mchua|xo>	but we could gently suggest that 
they might do it

Oct 15 12:52:35 <mchua|xo>	eben: (says something I can't hea
r)

Oct 15 12:53:03 <cjb>	naming is kinda orthogonal

Oct 15 12:53:11 <mchua|xo>	scott: for things on my hdd - lik
e images, i never name them, they're img_5235.jpg

Oct 15 12:53:16 <mchua|xo>	i can ignroe that... it's going t
o be optional

Oct 15 12:53:23 <cjb>	<eben> we might suggest naming when ki
ds click stop

Oct 15 12:53:27 <mchua|xo>	i think ti's kind of an orthogona
l issue i thinkw e can do better in ehcouraging people to gi
ve names

Oct 15 12:53:34 <cjb>	on an activity that hasn't been named 
yet, maybe give a suggestion

Oct 15 12:54:07 <mchua|xo>	(cjl, haven't forgotten you - eac
h question is taking a long time to answer :)

Oct 15 12:54:55 <mchua|xo>	scott: tags and structure - this 
is a key idea in computing, but i'm not convicne the hierarc
hy is

Oct 15 12:55:09 <mchua|xo>	i'll make a blanet statement - "t
hey key problem I'm rying to solve is interoperation with th
e outside world."

Oct 15 12:55:30 <mchua|xo>	there are lots of ther machiens a
round someone will give you a usb key with files on it and y
ou'll use an aplicatiotn that hasn't been sugarized and weir
d thigns happen

Oct 15 12:55:46 <mchua|xo>	so what i'm trying to do is can w
e provide a better means to interoperate with that when it h
appens

Oct 15 12:55:59 <mchua|xo>	i think a common problem is that 
they can't find their files

Oct 15 12:56:06 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: that's right - they can'
t find their files, not that they can't interoperate with...

Oct 15 12:56:30 <mchua|xo>	it's an all xo environment in pil
ots - i think that is th issue - that's not going to general
ize, to say use an usb key

Oct 15 12:56:45 <mchua|xo>	so in this world interoperability
 across platforms might be an issue but not there

Oct 15 12:56:55 <mchua|xo>	scott: but interop for devs is im
portant - i can't dogfood because of it

Oct 15 12:57:22 <mchua|xo>	i believe this is soething that w
ould be in the jouranl, we could use it to grow our userbase

Oct 15 12:57:49 <mchua|xo>	eben: i think we can take the jou
ranl and slolwoion troduce the notion of tags i fyo u wan in
trocue the notion of tags... if you think of a title with al
l the wrods in the title

Oct 15 12:57:52 <mchua|xo>	you'rea lready thinking about the
 tags

Oct 15 12:58:05 <mchua|xo>	so if the title... and somethign 
suggested tags, all of a sudden you ahve this easy way fo cl
icking on things

Oct 15 12:58:28 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: i took these pictures - 
and therea re mulitple ways of thinking about it - but if yo
u have kids will they be able to do stuff with the stuf ftha
'ts on the machine

Oct 15 12:58:40 <mchua|xo>	nameing it ,and forcing it, and m
aking it diffiuclt ot tona meit adding more to the tags it a
t thes ame time thorugh the joruanl gets you something

Oct 15 12:58:43 <mchua|xo>	but that'ss thte use case of the 
kids

Oct 15 12:58:55 <mchua|xo>	(multiple people talking at once)

Oct 15 12:59:08 <mchua|xo>	mstone: i think you're talking ab
out a way for people to think in many simultaneous ways

Oct 15 12:59:31 <mchua|xo>	dfa: i thin people are comig from
 this from a wide variety of places

Oct 15 12:59:35 <mchua|xo>	to cularify what's going on here

Oct 15 12:59:41 <mchua|xo>	the serach capability is alreayd 
implemented has been for months

Oct 15 12:59:52 <mchua|xo>	where if you write a write doc an
d you got search yo can search for jouranl you can search rf
or text you wrote inside write

Oct 15 12:59:55 <mchua|xo>	and that document wil pop up

Oct 15 13:00:01 <mchua|xo>	if you wrote a memo and called it
 memo, if you remembered it, that's fine

Oct 15 13:00:20 <mchua|xo>	tags are also the idea of tags is
 to be able to add searchable properties to objects that are
 not inside the objct

Oct 15 13:00:32 <mchua|xo>	what scott is proposing is a furt
her refirnement

Oct 15 13:00:33 <mchua|xo>	of this

Oct 15 13:01:10 <mchua|xo>	gettys: imagine an entirely searc
h-based interface

Oct 15 13:01:17 <mchua|xo>	i end up stop having to file

Oct 15 13:01:23 *	dsaxena_away is now known as dsaxena

Oct 15 13:01:27 <mchua|xo>	filing was an alien concept becau
se you were so confident at beinga ble to find everything al
lthe time

Oct 15 13:01:37 <mchua|xo>	my observation was taht gags was 
the unusual thing that - when you had a todo list on every t
opic

Oct 15 13:01:41 <mchua|xo>	and you had to ask something wher
e it was

Oct 15 13:01:44 <mchua|xo>	and it was still going to be obvi
ous from the content

Oct 15 13:01:54 <mchua|xo>	(talking about use of gmail)

Oct 15 13:02:05 <cjb>	questions from cjb:

Oct 15 13:02:16 <mchua|xo>	joe: whos' gong to teach kdis how
 to use it? (I think that's what he's asking)

Oct 15 13:02:19 <mchua|xo>	scott: you don't have to

Oct 15 13:02:20 <cjb>	* everyone's talking about search for 
text, but not everything in the datastore is a text file

Oct 15 13:02:22 *	marcopg (n=marco@host163-6-dynamic.5-87-r.
retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 13:02:41 <mchua|xo>	cjb+1

Oct 15 13:02:58 <mchua|xo>	(scott pulling up windows left an
d right on his machine!)

Oct 15 13:03:07 <cjb>	* Scott did a good job of convincing u
s that ordered tags aren't necessary, so I'm similarly uncon
vinced that they should be in the UI

Oct 15 13:03:14 <mchua|xo>	this is actually my journal - (on
 my computer)

Oct 15 13:03:17 <cjb>	(maybe a "filesystem activity" for tha
t)

Oct 15 13:03:52 <cjb>	(Scott demoing new journal)

Oct 15 13:05:42 *	mchua|xo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com 
ajax IRC Client")

Oct 15 13:06:25 <cjl>	ack, we lost mchua aka our trapscripti
onbot!

Oct 15 13:06:51 <tomeu>	oh, I thought everybody got silent t
here ;)

Oct 15 13:07:06 <cjb>	using pinot for desktop search

Oct 15 13:07:10 *	aa has quit (Remote closed the connection)

Oct 15 13:07:11 <cjb>	pinot's gui is ugly

Oct 15 13:07:15 <cjb>	but the backend is nice

Oct 15 13:07:19 <cjb>	uses xapian for search

Oct 15 13:07:26 <cjb>	alternative OpenSearch backend

Oct 15 13:07:31 *	aa (n=aa@r190-135-134-180.dialup.adsl.ante
ldata.net.uy) has joined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 13:07:31 <cjl>	thanks for picking up the slack cjb

Oct 15 13:07:36 *	mchua|xo (i=12553180@gateway/web/ajax/mibb
it.com/x-a7b646a83963eae9) has joined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 13:07:45 <cjb>	xapian probabilistic IR system

Oct 15 13:07:53 <cjb>	looks at context, relevance, scores

Oct 15 13:07:54 <mchua|xo>	(sorry guys, battery died)

Oct 15 13:08:00 <cjb>	works like Google does

Oct 15 13:08:05 <cjb>	does magic pagerank stuf

Oct 15 13:08:10 <mchua|xo>	wer'e nto using any of these extr
a features

Oct 15 13:08:14 <cjb>	.. but we're not actually using any of
 that

Oct 15 13:08:20 <cjb>	gmail doesn't use any of that

Oct 15 13:08:46 <mchua|xo>	so luckily, xapian also has a v e
fficient bool probablitstic serach... we're using the "under
 4 feet tall" aspect of xapian

Oct 15 13:08:49 <mchua|xo>	not the ferrari aspect

Oct 15 13:08:59 <mchua|xo>	it does lets us find things sorte
d by time really fast

Oct 15 13:09:09 <mchua|xo>	most things when you say sort by 
time it will go through all the docs and then sort it

Oct 15 13:09:27 <mchua|xo>	so all the fancy ferrariness of x
apain is right there

Oct 15 13:09:30 <mchua|xo>	(left sidebar)

Oct 15 13:09:38 <mchua|xo>	and these terms are relevant to t
hese

Oct 15 13:09:50 <mchua|xo>	so it's nice that we have all thi
s stuff under the hood bht altl ehf ancy features that give 
you better suggestions

Oct 15 13:10:00 <mchua|xo>	bht... blah blahb --> gets turned
 into

Oct 15 13:10:07 <mchua|xo>	so it's demo time

Oct 15 13:11:13 <mchua|xo>	scott: here are some questions i 
have

Oct 15 13:11:26 <mchua|xo>	(cjl, cjb - should find some way 
to ask your qeustions too)

Oct 15 13:11:48 <mchua|xo>	it should be easy to go back by d
eleting tags in your search

Oct 15 13:11:52 <mchua|xo>	i'm not cnovinced this is the rig
ht wya

Oct 15 13:12:03 <mchua|xo>	previews? i talked about a little
 - i'm not satisfied with the way preview sare displayed

Oct 15 13:12:42 <mchua|xo>	in gnome, nobody ever fills this 
(frequent-use) folder with useful stuff

Oct 15 13:12:57 <mchua|xo>	so if i have somethign thta gives
 me suggestions, i mgith want to have something here that le
ts me pin those in place

Oct 15 13:13:03 <mchua|xo>	so this mockup has stars beside t
ehse places

Oct 15 13:13:12 <mchua|xo>	what that does is that this stuff
 changes periodically but the starred thigns are ipnned down

Oct 15 13:13:41 <mchua|xo>	i'm not completely convinced w/ h
ow this looks and feels yet

Oct 15 13:14:01 <mchua|xo>	gettys: interesign questions - ar
e these (pins) for tags, or are they actually queries?

Oct 15 13:14:41 <mchua|xo>	so the query tags i've implemente
d are the same who waht where when that the ui shows and so 
what:pippy means what docs i imade in ppy

Oct 15 13:15:01 <mchua|xo>	or i can type something out and i
t will do a free text search

Oct 15 13:15:14 <mchua|xo>	so italked with some guys who wer
e into semantics

Oct 15 13:15:32 <mchua|xo>	so if i searched for who:chris it
 might also suggest good extensins of my serach

Oct 15 13:15:56 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: i18n?

Oct 15 13:16:15 <mchua|xo>	scott: my plan is  to hunt down t
he people who have done this wt translation systems and nail
 them to the wall about it

Oct 15 13:16:35 <mchua|xo>	scott: if there's a complicated q
uery you want o do you can reify the tags to do it

Oct 15 13:17:17 <mchua|xo>	cjb: ben talked about how tags ar
ent very useful, how about images searching for images?

Oct 15 13:17:28 <mchua|xo>	scott: i put a picture as a draft
... in berlin... that was a month ago...

Oct 15 13:17:44 <mchua|xo>	michael: consider 2o f the larger
 images - facebook - search of images of people, of faces

Oct 15 13:17:54 <mchua|xo>	scott: i'm going to put that in '
semantic magic'

Oct 15 13:18:03 <mchua|xo>	ben: also the most popular img se
raches on the web are tagging

Oct 15 13:18:14 <mchua|xo>	cjb: when you compare to gmail, g
mail si all text

Oct 15 13:18:21 <mchua|xo>	scott: that is true

Oct 15 13:18:55 <mchua|xo>	the way gmail works - for ex; whe
n i realized gmail wasn't doing any relevant sorting at all,
 i thought it was magic but when i actually looked under the
 covers after 2-3 years I didn't realize this

Oct 15 13:19:20 <mchua|xo>	then when i looked at my google s
earches i also realized my searches were all really really s
hort

Oct 15 13:19:25 <mchua|xo>	most people don't work like that

Oct 15 13:19:34 <mchua|xo>	if they are searching for X or Y,
 they just search for X Y

Oct 15 13:19:50 <mchua|xo>	gettys: i found i used tags less 
and less as time went on

Oct 15 13:20:08 <mchua|xo>	as i get more and more confident 
to search and be able to do siple queries, i just looked at 
name queries and remembering what that naemd queries had bee
n

Oct 15 13:20:21 <mchua|xo>	scott: i think the suggestions en
gine is really powerful too

Oct 15 13:20:46 <mchua|xo>	egarrison: legacy apps?

Oct 15 13:20:51 <mchua|xo>	scott: they rock

Oct 15 13:21:24 <mchua|xo>	(opens sugar-emulator)

Oct 15 13:22:08 <mchua|xo>	(opens inkscape from terminal act
ivity)

Oct 15 13:23:00 <mchua|xo>	most of the things are not really
 sugarized

Oct 15 13:23:13 <mchua|xo>	(points out buttons and the like)

Oct 15 13:23:25 <mchua|xo>	now pay no attention... the magic
 of LD_PRELOAD, scott's going to do something you should ign
ore...

Oct 15 13:23:33 <mchua|xo>	(reopens inskscape with magic ld_
preload thing)

Oct 15 13:23:37 <mchua|xo>	hey look, it is the jouranl!

Oct 15 13:23:50 <mchua|xo>	(searches through jouranl with ta
gs)

Oct 15 13:24:19 <mchua|xo>	this is the second lesson of the 
largo talk - there is no reason people can't embed the journ
al

Oct 15 13:24:23 <mchua|xo>	into their apps

Oct 15 13:24:33 <mchua|xo>	this is a compeltely sep process 
- jouranl in pythion, inkscape != python

Oct 15 13:24:56 <mchua|xo>	so you can search, journal makes 
the file you pick available to inkscape, and (away you go)

Oct 15 13:25:10 <mchua|xo>	you can also search for remote fi
les as well

Oct 15 13:25:58 <mchua|xo>	another lesson from largo: people
 don't want to learn new things, if you can do it in the fil
e browser you should be abel to do it in the open windwo bec
ause maybe you realize you need to make a new folder

Oct 15 13:26:37 <mchua|xo>	(starts iceweasel)

Oct 15 13:26:46 <mchua|xo>	this is a non ported version

Oct 15 13:26:52 <mchua|xo>	(brings up open dilaog)

Oct 15 13:26:56 <mchua|xo>	and it's the journal again!

Oct 15 13:27:17 <mchua|xo>	baically there is a nice abstract
 gtk interface for a file chooser

Oct 15 13:27:44 <mchua|xo>	and we basically sub out most of 
it for (magic bring up the journal stuff)

Oct 15 13:27:56 <mchua|xo>	the q before was how to make this
 work with existing things

Oct 15 13:28:04 <cjb>	journal dialog preloader is written in
 Vala

Oct 15 13:28:06 <mchua|xo>	in most cases we just want to sho
w the journal

Oct 15 13:28:26 <mchua|xo>	scott: what if it deosnt' work? i
t's a dbus interface...

Oct 15 13:28:32 <mchua|xo>	(simultaneous conversations i'm m
issing)

Oct 15 13:30:12 *	julianob (n=julianob@189.63.166.32) has jo
ined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 13:30:41 <mchua|xo>	(discussion outside the scope of 
this talk)

Oct 15 13:31:26 <mchua|xo>	scott: we want to avoid the user 
having to learn all these different interfaces - use the jou
rnal for everything.

Oct 15 13:32:06 <mchua|xo>	scott: let's save this discussion
 for later i need to get through the slides

Oct 15 13:32:08 <mchua|xo>	ok. so i love amazon

Oct 15 13:32:11 <mchua|xo>	or at least a9

Oct 15 13:32:24 <mchua|xo>	it's a really nice thing - it def
ines an open search interface and things can interoperate

Oct 15 13:32:29 <mchua|xo>	with their results on that

Oct 15 13:32:35 <mchua|xo>	so let's send... that's lal I nee
d tos ay about that atm

Oct 15 13:32:56 <mchua|xo>	this is the fun part

Oct 15 13:33:09 <mchua|xo>	(scott starting things on his com
puter...)

Oct 15 13:33:39 *	frances (n=183d3b73@olpc.osuosl.org) has j
oined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 13:34:04 <mchua|xo>	so here is a search interrface, o
ver htp

Oct 15 13:34:06 <mchua|xo>	http

Oct 15 13:34:16 <mchua|xo>	in theory this should only be the
 things i actually want to share with other people

Oct 15 13:34:21 <mchua|xo>	but the cool things about this...
 is that...

Oct 15 13:34:39 <mchua|xo>	I can add a search engine to my w
eb browser, and search for things like... "puerto rico"

Oct 15 13:35:00 <mchua|xo>	(he's searching on a web interfac
e done through a9)

Oct 15 13:36:46 <mchua|xo>	i can now make things that belong
 to my friends that look just like the journal entries that 
i have

Oct 15 13:36:57 <mchua|xo>	so I right clikc on chris, and i 
have this thing that says "look at his file"

Oct 15 13:37:05 <mchua|xo>	then i'll see the same journal in
terface

Oct 15 13:37:29 <mchua|xo>	if my friend does not have an xo 
they can subscribe to some sort of feed of my journal instea
d

Oct 15 13:38:21 <mchua|xo>	so if i want to use this as a blo
g, then i tag it with 'blog' and anyone in the world can sub
scribe to the (autogenerated) feed of my xo's blog...

Oct 15 13:38:54 <mchua|xo>	scott: network principles -t he t
ricy think is that i need a name so i can sub to an rss feed

Oct 15 13:39:08 <mchua|xo>	you cna see [[Network principles]
] for more discussion

Oct 15 13:39:23 <mchua|xo>	--- end talk ---

Oct 15 13:39:33 <mchua|xo>	scott:what did i do wrong?

Oct 15 13:39:41 <mchua|xo>	ben: <3 the things you've done

Oct 15 13:39:51 <mchua|xo>	now they're in code form which is
 a huge leap

Oct 15 13:40:03 <mchua|xo>	have difficulty w/ notion of tags
 you're using

Oct 15 13:40:25 <mchua|xo>	when I work with tags I either en
d up with somethign that does not look like tags or does not
 look like a dir structure

Oct 15 13:40:37 <mchua|xo>	scott: the reason I made this mok
cup is so I could use it - have experience with it

Oct 15 13:40:44 <mchua|xo>	i don't think it'll look like a d
ir structure

Oct 15 13:40:56 <mchua|xo>	i'm hoping that this is a continu
ing discusson on the use of it

Oct 15 13:41:29 <mchua|xo>	one thing is that there is an amb
iguity around... (I missed this)

Oct 15 13:41:46 <mchua|xo>	ben: the other thing is that I se
e less value in the syntactic where-colon, what-colon search
es

Oct 15 13:41:56 <mchua|xo>	talking w eben about what sort of
 syntax we were actually going to use for that

Oct 15 13:42:05 <mchua|xo>	i think that's more easy, valuabl
e

Oct 15 13:42:17 <mchua|xo>	scott: i used the google terms bc
 many people were already using it

Oct 15 13:42:52 <mchua|xo>	typing in tags is mroe error pron
e than being able to select from a list of existing tags

Oct 15 13:46:06 *	adricnet (n=adric@adsl-145-97-192.asm.bell
south.net) has joined #olpc-meeting

Oct 15 13:47:09 <mchua|xo>	joe: suppose i have 2 machines, o
ne an XO on sugar/linux, one ms windows

Oct 15 13:47:13 <mchua|xo>	i take a picture, i put file in s
tick

Oct 15 13:47:19 <mchua|xo>	i put stick in windows machine, s
ave the file

Oct 15 13:47:31 <mchua|xo>	i put stick in xo, tag, also save
 it

Oct 15 13:47:37 <mchua|xo>	tiem passes, i forget

Oct 15 13:47:43 <mchua|xo>	now in both machines i want to fi
nd my file.

Oct 15 13:47:45 <mchua|xo>	what do i do?

Oct 15 13:48:01 <mchua|xo>	scott: that depends on a lot of t
he details - where i saved it, how much do i know about wind
ows

Oct 15 13:48:26 <mchua|xo>	if i put it on my windows desktop
, it'll still be there

Oct 15 13:48:35 <mchua|xo>	if tag it with 'photos' it'll sti
ll be tagged with photos

Oct 15 13:48:54 <mchua|xo>	eben: it won't tag the photos for
 you, you can tag w anything you want

Oct 15 13:49:03 <mchua|xo>	joe: so from the user's perspecti
ve, what is that?

Oct 15 13:49:14 <mchua|xo>	scott: so we have some magic info
rmation here... (searches for type:/jpeg)

Oct 15 13:49:24 <mchua|xo>	computer knows about metadata you
 might have about a jpeg file

Oct 15 13:50:37 <aa>	mchua|xo: thank so much for the transcr
ipt!

Oct 15 13:50:45 <aa>	cjb: you too

Oct 15 13:52:36 <mchua|xo>	aa: np!

Oct 15 13:53:11 <mchua|xo>	i'll post logs from my desktop wh
en I get back there in ~10m

Oct 15 13:55:21 <mchua|xo>	too many simul. convos going on a
tm.. i'm going to stop recording