Grassroots bootcamp/Results/monday transcript
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Introductions
Jun 09 09:48:38 * Now talking on #olpc-groups Jun 09 09:48:38 * Topic for #olpc-groups is: The global channel for all local communities | Mailing List: http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/grassroots Jun 09 09:48:38 * Topic for #olpc-groups set by crazy-chris at Tue Jan 1 19:24:10 2008 Jun 09 10:05:39 * GoatCheezWork (n=Miranda@rrcs-97-76-61-66.se.biz.rr.com) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:10:09 * isforinsects (n=isforins@unaffiliated/isforinsects) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:10:39 * bjordan (n=bjordan@wireless-38.media.mit.edu) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:11:09 * bjordan is now known as bjordan-onprojec Jun 09 10:11:21 * bjordan-onprojec is now known as bjordanprojector Jun 09 10:14:01 * avoine (n=avoine@pdpc/supporter/active/avoine) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:16:11 <mchua> Morning session from grassroots bootcamp, transcript start Jun 09 10:16:15 <mchua> sj: introductions! Jun 09 10:16:18 <mchua> hello, i'm sj Jun 09 10:16:26 <bjordanprojector> Mel: I'm transcribing this for #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:16:39 <mchua> whe npeple come in - this is a working session for 4 days to hash out what needs to happen to make a grassroots group Jun 09 10:16:40 <mchua> bjordanprojector: :p Jun 09 10:19:05 <mchua> christoph (cd): most of you know me already, i'm christoph, i'm from austria Jun 09 10:19:22 <isforinsects> cd: co-editor of OLPCnews.com Jun 09 10:19:23 <mchua> also run olpcnews.com Jun 09 10:19:26 <mchua> isforinsects: thanks Jun 09 10:19:46 * ffm (n=firefoxm@unaffiliated/ffm) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:20:15 <isforinsects> mel: this is my fault, from IL, working on grassroots, running jams and organizing uni groups, local people who don't quite know how to get involved mel s Jun 09 10:20:22 <isforinsects> runs a conference and teaches them Jun 09 10:20:27 <mchua> brian jordan (bj): I'm brian jordan, working on 2d physics engine as an olpc intern Jun 09 10:20:36 <mchua> [[Elements]] Jun 09 10:20:47 <mchua> seth woodworth (sw): is isforinsects Jun 09 10:20:50 <mchua> is an intern here as of yesterday Jun 09 10:21:02 <mchua> working on grassroots deelopments content workflow and <something I missed> Jun 09 10:21:14 <mchua> jonathan (j): I'm jonathan, from birmingham, al Jun 09 10:21:15 <isforinsects> Johnathen Austin: from Birmingham Jun 09 10:21:17 <mchua> haven't bene involved before Jun 09 10:21:25 <isforinsects> Bootcamp in July, 6 week project Jun 09 10:21:29 <mchua> 6 week project working with... Jun 09 10:21:31 <mchua> diana daley? Jun 09 10:21:35 <isforinsects> Working with Julian and ? Jun 09 10:21:50 <mchua> 15k laptops in the hands of students Jun 09 10:22:02 <mchua> wer'e goin to be on a team to help train the local teaches and set up a laptop hospital Jun 09 10:22:06 <mchua> teach them how to repair laptops Jun 09 10:22:09 <mchua> i'im here to learn as much as I can Jun 09 10:22:14 <mchua> my background is in nonprofit management Jun 09 10:22:15 <isforinsects> My background is in NP management Jun 09 10:22:19 <mchua> executive director of a nonprofit for 4 years Jun 09 10:22:23 <mchua> been doing np work for 11 years Jun 09 10:22:24 <isforinsects> in NP world for 11 years Jun 09 10:22:29 <mchua> neighborhood grassroots orgnaizations Jun 09 10:23:36 <mchua> working with cmmunities aorund the city Jun 09 10:23:42 <isforinsects> Churches are major parts of the community Jun 09 10:23:44 <mchua> so they do a lot of the outreah and ocmmunity invovlement in education Jun 09 10:23:51 <mchua> they set up bake sales <?> and etc Jun 09 10:23:51 <isforinsects> set up daycare Jun 09 10:23:57 <mchua> os they're a huge presence in birminham Jun 09 10:23:59 <isforinsects> 1600 churchs in the city Jun 09 10:24:00 <mchua> 1500 Jun 09 10:24:03 <mchua> 1600? ok Jun 09 10:24:15 <mchua> corporations set up different labs Jun 09 10:24:22 <isforinsects> and np's ^ Jun 09 10:24:24 <mchua> technology opportuniteis program Jun 09 10:24:48 <mchua> ffm: I know you're watching us long-distance, so if ther'es osmetihng incoherent in the trancript, plealse holler - we want to clean these up so they're readable by others later, but all the info needs to be in first Jun 09 10:24:50 <isforinsects> Fund to engage students and adults in education Jun 09 10:25:21 <isforinsects> first 5 and now 7 labs around the city for training in low income communities. Jun 09 10:25:33 <isforinsects> Basic computer skills training Jun 09 10:25:42 <isforinsects> Internet browsing and security Jun 09 10:26:37 <mchua> julian talking about how they've run tons of community programs - large scale outreach - with volunteers in birmingham Jun 09 10:26:57 * mchua can't understand sj when his head is facing away from me Jun 09 10:27:32 <mchua> nikki (nl): I'm Nikki, going to ILXO which is a grassroots startup in chicago Jun 09 10:27:42 <mchua> been involved in olpc a little over a year, doing grassroots, outreach, support-gang stuff Jun 09 10:27:47 <mchua> olin is a university chapter Jun 09 10:27:54 <mchua> sj: does everyone know what s-g is? Jun 09 10:27:55 <mchua> (yes) Jun 09 10:28:08 <mchua> al: I'm andrea lai, also going to chicago been doing stuff with the olin university chapter Jun 09 10:28:24 <mchua> cc: my name's chris carrick, I'm another ILXO member, I'm fairly new to OLPC, just really started in the last couple of weeks Jun 09 10:28:41 <mchua> but I'm helping to work on power peripherals, developing voltage regulators etc. for off-grid charging Jun 09 10:28:47 <mchua> (that's everyone) Jun 09 10:37:55 <mchua> *francesca comes in* Jun 09 10:38:57 <mchua> fs: i'm francesca slade, an undegrad @ yale, background is in theoretical math Jun 09 10:39:07 <mchua> but going to cs Jun 09 10:39:24 <mchua> and i grew up being better at math than most of the poeple in my grade being frustrated at that Jun 09 10:39:31 <mchua> I think theoretical math can be taught differently Jun 09 10:39:54 <mchua> what's happenign in new haven is that we're trying to set up a pilot Jun 09 10:40:12 <mchua> yale olpc will be an official chapter in te fall Jun 09 10:40:24 <mchua> issues becoming an official organization @ school during the summer break, so we have to wait until the fall
Schedule
Jun 09 10:28:56 <mchua> sj: we should start off brainstorming - we have a mindmap (on the projector) Jun 09 10:29:25 <mchua> isforinsects: can't understand sj half the time - can you help by transcribing him? I think I can get everyone else since htey're looking at sj Jun 09 10:29:42 <isforinsects> SJ over lunch we'll have core OLPC staff that will answer questions Jun 09 10:29:56 <isforinsects> Today we'll have Adam Holt and Robert Fidel(sp?) Jun 09 10:29:58 <mchua> isforinsects: <3 Jun 09 10:30:02 <mchua> Robert Fadel Jun 09 10:30:06 <isforinsects> afternoon is 2-4 and working on open projects Jun 09 10:30:22 <mchua> Adam = Support manager, Robert = director of finance Jun 09 10:30:23 <isforinsects> groups of 2-3 and coming up with suggestion models that OLPC can asess Jun 09 10:31:13 <mchua> (as sj talks, bjordanprojector is adding to the mindmap - brian, are you posting the mindmap up at the end of the day?) Jun 09 10:31:17 <isforinsects> Duke is an example of non-supported grassroots running in parallel to other projects Jun 09 10:31:27 <bjordanprojector> mchua: yup Jun 09 10:31:45 <mchua> bjordanprojector: hurrah, thanks!
Brainstorming on problems
See the list of problems at Grassroots problems
Jun 09 10:32:14 <isforinsects> Sj: how do we address core communication issues? Jun 09 10:32:23 <isforinsects> How do we organize organizers Jun 09 10:32:37 <mchua> cd: yes, let me pull up the wiki page Jun 09 10:32:56 <mchua> sj: topics: how we start a local chapter, grassroots groups, and what kind of interfaces olpc can provide to them Jun 09 10:33:19 <mchua> cd: talking about olpc austria - we started ~1yr ago Jun 09 10:33:26 <mchua> we were the 1st european grassroots Jun 09 10:33:42 <mchua> ths was an itnerestng place tobe bc it gave us a lot of insight on what is going on @ europe, how we canleverage across countries, connet people Jun 09 10:33:52 <mchua> the idea at the beginning was we were going ot support the olpc effort via varous means Jun 09 10:33:59 <mchua> some of the things we've done are doing presentatoins, universities in austria Jun 09 10:34:02 <mchua> various festivals Jun 09 10:34:03 <mchua> events, Jun 09 10:34:08 <mchua> talking to austrian computer assoc Jun 09 10:34:14 <mchua> also went to geermany, conferences Jun 09 10:34:20 <mchua> icd tradehow Jun 09 10:34:21 <mchua> er, ict Jun 09 10:34:25 <mchua> CEBIT Jun 09 10:34:33 <mchua> the next one's really actual projects - so producing things Jun 09 10:34:40 <mchua> ex: activity handbook Jun 09 10:34:45 <mchua> that me and 2 other poele coauthored Jun 09 10:34:52 <mchua> basially a document n how to get people started w writing activities for the xo Jun 09 10:35:08 <mchua> because we weill probably explroe taht in one way or the other in the next few days - documentation is one of the big tasks that hasn't really bene tackled Jun 09 10:35:25 <mchua> presentations for olpc wihch basically comes form our own ened to have prestentation materials Jun 09 10:35:31 <mchua> the mateirals we made are cc-licensed on our wiki Jun 09 10:35:37 <mchua> also avialable in english Jun 09 10:35:46 <mchua> we try to make all ew do as easy as possible for others Jun 09 10:36:06 <mchua> the former layout and skin for wiki.laptop.org was done by an olpc austrian Jun 09 10:36:12 <mchua> the postcad desig Jun 09 10:36:32 <mchua> heping grassroots communicate adn set up stuff Jun 09 10:36:46 <mchua> a lot of communities to better ommunicate a collaborate about things Jun 09 10:36:52 <mchua> because i htink we canall agree tha communication is the goodness Jun 09 10:37:02 <mchua> languages, timezones, etc. Jun 09 10:37:08 <mchua> in face meetings are important Jun 09 10:37:10 <mchua> we all ove the internet Jun 09 10:37:19 <mchua> but it makes senes to meet face to face so people can meet, hang out Jun 09 10:37:28 <mchua> that's just some of the many things that i've ben wrking on Jun 09 10:37:44 <mchua> sj: we are using the olpcaustria skin - we just changed it to a white background Jun 09 10:51:32 <mchua> cd: back on schedule! Jun 09 10:51:52 <mchua> we're going to start today's questoin w some of the topics oon the screen Jun 09 10:52:09 <mchua> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Grassroots_bootcamp/Topics Jun 09 10:52:27 <mchua> bjordanprojector: i'e got notes - go ahead and show the wiki page on the screen Jun 09 10:52:36 * sj (n=sj@dhcp-47-60.media.mit.edu) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:52:48 <mchua> cd: is reading through [[Grassroots bootcamp/Topics]] Jun 09 10:53:08 <mchua> cd: I personally think all of these are big projects where grassroots can easily contribute Jun 09 10:53:27 <ffm> mchua: will do. Jun 09 10:53:35 <mchua> ffm: thanks. Jun 09 10:53:54 <mchua> cd: one thing we talked about was the need for a community ambassador @ olpc to serve as a point of contact for the community Jun 09 10:54:18 <mchua> also, financial support - we're very us centric right now, it would be great if we could get nepal, rwanda, etc. people over, but they often need travel funds Jun 09 10:54:25 <mchua> grassroots conference - something in early 2009 Jun 09 10:54:38 <mchua> collaboration and communication among grassrots - it doesn't makes sense to dupliacate effort Jun 09 10:54:44 <mchua> ...and more Jun 09 10:55:09 <mchua> repair center infrastructures. one of the presing things is the next g1g1 starting august/sept timeframe and the fact that hte'res no support structure setup for it Jun 09 10:55:27 <mchua> and also the way information flows - between 1cc and the community, and among the ocmmunity. Jun 09 10:55:41 <mchua> want to start off w/ brief brainstorming; what are the biggest problems you see wrt community work? Jun 09 10:55:48 <mchua> ffm: chime in if you hae ideas ;) Jun 09 10:55:56 <isforinsects> Chris: getting people connected and aware of the issues Jun 09 10:56:01 <mchua> cc: people aren't connected and aware of the issues I've talked to a lot of people who would love to be involved Jun 09 10:56:09 <mchua> but dont now whwere to start really Jun 09 10:56:15 <mchua> getting onto the wiki, ther'es a learning cure Jun 09 10:56:18 <mchua> curve Jun 09 10:56:20 <isforinsects> Learning curve to getting on the wiki Jun 09 10:56:21 <sj> me : a group to process volunteer requests and match them Jun 09 10:56:22 <mchua> it's just guiding those interestd parties Jun 09 10:56:26 <isforinsects> guiding those interested parties Jun 09 10:56:34 * homunq (n=chema@216.106.170.183) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:56:47 <mchua> me: the lack of value we place on volunteer coordination and infrastructure Jun 09 10:57:03 <sj> and someone in each region who can respond to interest Jun 09 10:57:04 <mchua> fs: do you thnk it owuld b eheplful to have some turn based governnng body of grassroots organizations Jun 09 10:57:13 <mchua> so thta someone is the leader of the gropu of 5 people that respond to X Jun 09 10:57:15 <isforinsects> fem: coordinator for grassroots recruitment? Jun 09 10:57:40 <sj> fem : some sort of ongoing term-based structure that helps oversee varous grasroots effroits Jun 09 10:57:43 <mchua> sw: it should get done more efficiency - I've answed many emails in the maling lists Jun 09 10:57:47 <mchua> saying hey I want to get more invovled need more info Jun 09 10:57:48 * cjb (n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 10:57:59 <sj> perhaps a small group of people to find someone to look after repari centers -- making sure there's one within a cetani distance from eery deployment / cluster Jun 09 10:57:59 <mchua> if we had a person whose job that was, who knows this stuff... Jun 09 10:58:07 <sj> and someone to look after matching volunteers, and someone to look after penpals or communication programs Jun 09 10:58:24 <mchua> sj: i'm trying to keep this channel and the talk in the room synced, so this = notes Jun 09 10:58:25 <sj> and someone to organize public documentation / information about all gropus; including the wiki, blogs, and such Jun 09 10:58:41 <mchua> fs: need a portal to direct people to what they're interstd in - I'm a teacher! i'm interested in this! they should know where to go Jun 09 10:58:41 <sj> mchua ; I'm adding transcriptions of femslade that weren't picked up ... Jun 09 10:58:51 <sj> I think we're talking slowly enough that we can support discussion too :) Jun 09 10:58:54 <mchua> sj: thanks. i'm missing bits and snatches as I type Jun 09 10:59:03 <sj> brian : we coul first outlin bits and snatches of who wants to contribute... Jun 09 10:59:05 <mchua> sj: eh, attention should not be split between screen and discussion, except for one scribe Jun 09 10:59:21 <mchua> sj: that's what I'm trying to do - so everyone else can focus Jun 09 10:59:38 <mchua> fs: i htink we do need a much... right now we have sutdnets, educators, developers, but we need more specific range of paths to follow Jun 09 10:59:47 <mchua> seth: we need to break it down to the level of "I'm an illustrator" etc Jun 09 10:59:48 <sj> [sure. if people /not/ in the room wnt to chime in, please do] Jun 09 10:59:58 <mchua> fs: I also thini we need when you clik on that button it gets to a page where i'ts "here are poe nprojects!" Jun 09 11:00:06 <mchua> bj: and hae contact points Jun 09 11:00:13 <mchua> sw: not contact points! just tasks Jun 09 11:01:20 <mchua> mc: guys, we're thinking about problelms ,not solutions Jun 09 11:01:24 <mchua> fs: organization Jun 09 11:02:43 <mchua> * Hard to find out what's going on in your location, and in your area of interest Jun 09 11:02:43 <mchua> * Steep learning curve to climb to use the tools we use to communicate and work with each other (wiki? git? come on.) Jun 09 11:02:43 <mchua> * Community organizing work is not valued. Jun 09 11:04:01 <mchua> fs: people knowing this is something they can do is also a problem Jun 09 11:04:15 <mchua> fs: people not knowing that they can contribute is a problem Jun 09 11:04:44 <mchua> bj: agrees with fs - my university profs fall into that category Jun 09 11:05:59 <mchua> bj: problem - university professors don't know how they can contirbute Jun 09 11:06:10 <sj> sj : notes johnathan is being quiet... Jun 09 11:06:30 <mchua> ja: one problem is that people aren't made aware Jun 09 11:06:40 <mchua> cd: there are two issues here Jun 09 11:06:57 <mchua> 1. olpc and the olpc community haven't been good at using people who email us and say we want to help Jun 09 11:08:02 <mchua> 2. ? Jun 09 11:08:15 <mchua> ja: olpc does not have a main contact outreach person? Jun 09 11:08:25 <mchua> sj: there are two of us - I work with grassroots groups, adam holt works with support-gang Jun 09 11:08:46 * mchua will use "sk" instead of "sj" so not to trigger nick recognition Jun 09 11:08:59 <mchua> sk: say more about what kind of contact you have in mind Jun 09 11:09:32 <mchua> ja: a job description - all they would do is community outreach, getting people involved - depending on the mission Jun 09 11:09:46 <mchua> getitng invovled wiht and iundersatnd the local bureaucracy is really... how to get into neighborhood associatoins, the local library Jun 09 11:09:54 <mchua> probably send... you can have a top down or bottom up approach Jun 09 11:09:58 <mchua> these are similar Jun 09 11:10:07 <mchua> you probalb have a lot of different things ot do Jun 09 11:10:34 <mchua> organizing campaigns, answering emails... Jun 09 11:10:53 <mchua> but not just that - just someone to do outreach Jun 09 11:11:13 <mchua> sj: we've only done outreach to govts - not people Jun 09 11:11:19 <mchua> er, sk^^ Jun 09 11:12:23 <mchua> sk: I'd like us to focus more on the def. of grassroots/collective groups - here is an organizing body Jun 09 11:12:46 <mchua> this body may not hae anything to do with olpc - which is probably best Jun 09 11:13:04 <mchua> sw: so to add on that - it's a question of scale - we have so many pepole interested and sw hae os many epole who are speiang differenlanguages Jun 09 11:13:05 <mchua> so many projects Jun 09 11:13:14 <mchua> if we think of.. lok, if we had a job for someone to do this, it's all going to scale as afar as that person to do it Jun 09 11:13:22 <mchua> if we think about scaling a process (rather than a person) Jun 09 11:13:29 <mchua> it's more scaleable... infinitely scaleable. Jun 09 11:13:40 <mchua> cd: personllya, I think tihs is true on paper, but there are some bottelnecks Jun 09 11:13:42 <mchua> liek access to xos Jun 09 11:13:51 <mchua> which may be aesier to deal iwth in the future but righ tnow it's encumbering us in austria Jun 09 11:14:00 <mchua> bc we can't get laptso without olpc approval Jun 09 11:14:07 <mchua> sw: that's the case exactly - we need to get away from olpc to make that community proess Jun 09 11:14:12 <mchua> fs: that cant be a community process! Jun 09 11:14:27 <mchua> in the sense that olpc has to say "we will sell you laptops at x price" Jun 09 11:15:34 <mchua> sj: the process for allocating laptops should be community run Jun 09 11:15:50 <mchua> ther'es also the question of how do we support a small school - maybe they need 50 laptops Jun 09 11:15:53 * kikka (i=kikka@muschel.netzhure.de) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 11:15:56 <kikka> Heya. Jun 09 11:16:19 <mchua> kikka: hi there. we're in the middle of a meeting, trying to transcribe from 1cc, so you will see lots of spurious typing and bad spelling here. Jun 09 11:16:23 <mchua> kikka: feel free to chime in. Jun 09 11:16:40 <mchua> sk: what i'd like us to get to this week is to find a way to define a way for people to say " I want to do X" Jun 09 11:16:53 <mchua> if we define this rightly we'll be able ote say yes Jun 09 11:19:01 <mchua> isforinsects: i'm taking a break from transcribing to write our prolems list, can you ake over ofr a sec? Jun 09 11:20:08 <ffm> sj: ping! Jun 09 11:20:14 <ffm> (not part of meeting) Jun 09 11:21:54 <isforinsects> t: in SA it takes 1.5 hours to charge with a solar panel Jun 09 11:22:12 <isforinsects> we also got the textbooks from the dept of education in SA Jun 09 11:22:25 <isforinsects> We had to load them on the server, if we never had the server we would never get them on the XO's Jun 09 11:22:41 <mchua> ffm: pm or email him Jun 09 11:22:54 <isforinsects> X didn't know that they needed a server to serve textbookx Jun 09 11:23:14 <isforinsects> cd: are there external community members in SA? Jun 09 11:23:22 <isforinsects> t: I'm running a Uni club Jun 09 11:23:35 <isforinsects> Makes it very easy for the people donating the laptops Jun 09 11:23:52 <isforinsects> For it was more about relationships than donations Jun 09 11:24:06 <isforinsects> also people from gov, and other groups from the mailing lists Jun 09 11:24:06 <sj> hiya ffm; pm? Jun 09 11:24:08 * sj is now known as _sj_ Jun 09 11:24:18 <isforinsects> Mostly it's us, but we share with them Jun 09 11:24:24 <isforinsects> only ones at the moment with the XO's Jun 09 11:24:30 <isforinsects> Many people ask us questions Jun 09 11:24:33 <isforinsects> sometimes it's touch Jun 09 11:24:35 <isforinsects> *tough Jun 09 11:24:47 <isforinsects> And it's hard because we're not experts on the XO yet Jun 09 11:25:58 * h01ger would be interested in a telefone grassroots call in, but it doesnt fit me today Jun 09 11:26:30 <mchua> h01ger: when would be good? Jun 09 11:26:30 <isforinsects> lost...? Jun 09 11:26:36 <mchua> isforinsects: as am I Jun 09 11:26:45 <isforinsects> sk: you're basically the liaison for the group? Jun 09 11:26:47 <isforinsects> t: yes Jun 09 11:27:04 <isforinsects> How many laptops in Cliptown Jun 09 11:27:14 <isforinsects> t: 100 laptops, might be getting another 100 Jun 09 11:27:16 * ffm pms _sj_ Jun 09 11:28:07 <mchua> bjordanprojector: can you put http://pastebin.ca/1042980 up? Jun 09 11:28:08 <isforinsects> sup ffm? Jun 09 11:28:51 <h01ger> mchua, probably wednesday or thursday or friday, and a bit earlier (like from 1600-1700 utc or earlier, but i'm not sure this is good for 1cc :) - usually less short notice than a few hours also helps :) (but today it would have been impossible anyway) Jun 09 11:29:23 <_sj_> please add problems here in-chan that we've missed... Jun 09 11:29:27 <isforinsects> Julian Daily just joined us Jun 09 11:29:32 <isforinsects> OLPC Learning Team Jun 09 11:29:59 <ffm> isforinsects: not much. Jun 09 11:30:55 >h01ger< wednesday morning 1500-1600 utc? that's 1000-1100 est, iirc Jun 09 11:32:36 <mchua> bjordanprojector: can you add these problems to the pastebin please? Jun 09 11:32:54 <mchua> bjordanprojector: nm, i'll do it Jun 09 11:33:21 <bjordanprojector> k Jun 09 11:34:00 <mchua> bjordanprojector: refresh page pls Jun 09 11:34:26 <mchua> bjordanprojector: er... again? I don't think that took Jun 09 11:34:48 <bjordanprojector> got it Jun 09 11:35:04 >_sj_< h0lger to join us conf call 10am wed. - how to set up call? Jun 09 11:35:13 >_sj_< he asks, "do you have SIP dialin or only POTS?" Jun 09 11:42:33 <_sj_> seth: ubuntu's package popularity system! &c. Jun 09 11:42:49 <_sj_> [cd notes he has a plan for sth like this as well; cf. mozilla's plugin review] Jun 09 11:54:30 <homunq> what's going on? meeting still happening? Jun 09 12:16:43 <homunq> mchua: ? Jun 09 12:17:01 <mchua> homunq: lunch break Jun 09 12:17:16 <homunq> (btw, mchua: great job with transcription, props.) Jun 09 12:17:34 <mchua> homunq: thanks - it's somewhat spotty but if people ask for clarification in parts I'd be happy to try to fill the gaps in
Peru
Jun 09 12:20:11 <mchua> *emiliano pavorvo <sp?> enters, introduces self* Jun 09 12:20:18 <mchua> implementatin/deployment team in... peru? Jun 09 12:20:26 <mchua> (having a hard time undersatnding) Jun 09 12:22:06 <isforinsects> Thi thing is that right now in Ur are thinking of Jun 09 12:22:19 <isforinsects> more concerned of delivering laptops, next year is elections Jun 09 12:22:29 <isforinsects> The goal is to deliver all the laptops Jun 09 12:23:47 <isforinsects> Ceibal has a little bit of everything, kernal hacking, school server filtering Jun 09 12:23:58 <isforinsects> Parents want filters on the laptops Jun 09 12:24:23 <isforinsects> I have a coworker that is compiling modules Jun 09 12:24:33 <isforinsects> And is doing filtering at the OS level Jun 09 12:25:04 <isforinsects> trying to make changes without branching the builds Jun 09 12:27:05 <ffm> isforinsects: eeew, filtering! Jun 09 12:30:37 * homunq has an idea about outgoing network security that he hasn't brought up because he already has too much of a rep for blue-sky speculation. Jun 09 12:31:01 <homunq> but that is not for this room anyway. Jun 09 12:43:48 * sadgnot (n=chatzill@staff.fr.dailymotion.com) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 12:44:21 <homunq> the point I actually wanted to raise here, and it's hard to know when to do so, is that content (lesson plans, etc.) is generally a bigger mess than software. It's a harder problem, I understand - partly because different XO supporters can have different standpoints towards pedagogy (constructionism) - but it still needs clearer portals. Jun 09 12:45:12 <homunq> One big piece of a clear portal is backlinks, when you find something you should have a link to "how I should have found this". Jun 09 12:45:25 <homunq> and "how can I find more like this" Jun 09 12:45:46 <homunq> this helps the portal grow wikily. Jun 09 12:46:52 <homunq> (other issue which is harder for content than software is language, but we essentially have only 2 so far. Spanish > English >> everything else) Jun 09 12:48:31 <isforinsects> homunq, Yes, that in fact is a project that I am going to be working on later in the week Jun 09 12:48:36 <isforinsects> backlinks Jun 09 12:49:16 <homunq> (becaue the metric is n(n-1) where n=number of independent groups. Mongolia, Nepal, Haiti are all just one group, so in-language communication needed = 0) Jun 09 12:49:32 <homunq> s/all/each/ Jun 09 12:49:40 <homunq> isforinsects: :) Jun 09 12:50:16 <mchua> homunq: +1 Jun 09 12:50:31 <isforinsects> backlinks and disambuation
Open work time
Jun 09 13:04:43 <mchua> getting started again
Jun 09 13:06:32 <mchua> trying to consolidate projects - too many people working solo
Jun 09 13:08:32 <ffm> kk
Jun 09 13:09:46 * mchua is being relieved of transcription duty - hands hurt
Jun 09 13:10:09 <isforinsects> Mel: there is now how to run a Jam guide
Jun 09 13:10:20 <isforinsects> Mel: blah blah blah, make sure you have pizza, blah
Jun 09 13:10:30 <isforinsects> Mel: Going to write up a how-to Jam handbook
Jun 09 13:10:37 <isforinsects> Sj finishing a guide that people can use?
Jun 09 13:16:58 * dirakx1 has quit ("Leaving.")
Jun 09 13:22:47 <mchua> projects for the day:
Jun 09 13:22:59 <bjordanprojector> Jam Kit (Mel, Brian)
Jun 09 13:22:59 <bjordanprojector> Materials for running jam
Jun 09 13:23:00 <mchua> Brian Jordan and Mel Chua working on a "running a jam" howto
Jun 09 13:23:00 <bjordanprojector> Community Content Contribution
Jun 09 13:23:00 <bjordanprojector> Use cases
Jun 09 13:23:00 <bjordanprojector> Roles
Jun 09 13:23:00 <bjordanprojector> University Chapters
Jun 09 13:23:02 <bjordanprojector> Fixing U Chapter wiki page
Jun 09 13:23:04 <bjordanprojector> Removing Mel from process
Jun 09 13:23:06 <bjordanprojector> Grassroots Org. Org.
Jun 09 13:23:07 <mchua> bjordanprojector: you rock!
Jun 09 13:23:17 <bjordanprojector> mchua: I can make logos
Jun 09 13:23:33 <mchua> bjordanprojector: with a "beta" sticker?
Jun 09 13:23:40 <bjordanprojector> definitely
Jun 09 13:26:15 * sadgnot_ (n=chatzill@mar75-10-88-181-24-217.fbx.proxad.net)
has joined #olpc-groups
Jun 09 13:26:19 * sadgnot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
Jun 09 13:26:27 * sadgnot_ is now known as sadgnot
World computer exchange
Jun 09 13:38:46 <_sj_> tim anderson has the floor
Jun 09 13:38:50 <_sj_> worldcomputerexchange.org
Jun 09 13:39:00 <_sj_> we have 2500 volunteers... a few people who do nothing but
hold the hands of participating organizations
Jun 09 13:39:15 <_sj_> we have 45 formal partners; it could be a minied, or world
vision, or a team of peace corps volunteers
Jun 09 13:39:22 <_sj_> primary things we do are : geting used computers into public spaces
Jun 09 13:39:30 <_sj_> differen;t not new tech, not to individuals
Jun 09 13:39:41 <_sj_> occasionally they get computers, but it's primarily to be
placed in schools and orphanages and youth centers...
Jun 09 13:39:42 <_sj_> questions?
Jun 09 13:39:56 <_sj_> what motivates people to come to our equiv of jams
Jun 09 13:40:00 <_sj_> are testing & packing computers
Jun 09 13:40:12 <_sj_> generally hardware and sw techies who love seeing
PIIIs and souping them up and packing them to go out
Jun 09 13:40:22 <_sj_> we ship in containers of 200-400...
Jun 09 13:40:45 <_sj_> sometimes it goes to 20 diff schools; people oftgen
need network gea, or sw, or patch cords made up, or servers.
Jun 09 13:40:52 <_sj_> we go gather things and throw it i
Jun 09 13:40:58 <_sj_> we have teams who go ~2 months after it arrives to help
with network
Jun 09 13:41:06 <_sj_> so if a place doesn't have capacity to do that, a team
might go with 12 people.
Jun 09 13:41:14 <_sj_> they pay their own way, like it b/c they are seeeing a
diff culture, having a goodtime.
Jun 09 13:41:19 <_sj_> geting to show off tips and tricks they show off
Jun 09 13:41:25 <_sj_> the age range is 17 to 45...
Jun 09 13:41:32 >_sj_< apologies for interrupting - wasn't aware that tim was
in here to speak. (not on schedule == not in consciousness.)
Jun 09 13:41:37 <_sj_> we also have individuals who go, b/c they were planning
on going anywya. they ask if there's anything they could do to help.
Jun 09 13:41:44 <_sj_> we'll connect them with a diff country to see if they have
skills to help solve.
Jun 09 13:41:54 <_sj_> the main thing we're trying to do is leave things with a
stronger capacity for involvement that they had in the beginning,.
Jun 09 13:42:01 <_sj_> they have to do fundriasing, planning, tech plans, program
development, org development
Jun 09 13:42:05 <_sj_> it's a lot of ... mgmt consulting
Jun 09 13:42:13 <_sj_> when I say holding their hands, it's helping them specifically
do something they ned
Jun 09 13:42:16 <_sj_> it usually falls into 5 areas
Jun 09 13:42:26 <_sj_> the chapter jobs ; get computers, get volnteers, get money, get
press, get uni/school connections
Jun 09 13:42:41 <_sj_> johnathan : how do people get things to you? do you pick them up,
do they send them?
Jun 09 13:42:48 <_sj_> tim : lots of dfferent was
Jun 09 13:42:55 <_sj_> we tend not to have colunters go out for less than 80?
Jun 09 13:43:00 <_sj_> they tend to bring them and stack them in a central repository
Jun 09 13:43:05 <_sj_> we only accept working equipm,ent, people are roughyl honest
Jun 09 13:43:08 <_sj_> not too much work that needs to be done
Jun 09 13:43:12 <_sj_> tim : do you recycle ones you don't use?
Jun 09 13:43:18 <_sj_> (john, sorry)
Jun 09 13:43:35 <_sj_> tim: yes... mostly boxes of extra things, power, floppy drives,
carts. what you need to pack safely in a kit. they alwas get extra so fthose, extra hardd ries for spaces
Jun 09 13:43:36 <_sj_> and hubs
Jun 09 13:43:51 <_sj_> it's a lab on a pallette; you might have 20 in side a container.
a lot of time you measure by 20s. one pallette can hold 20 sets, packed tll and big
Jun 09 13:43:53 <_sj_> 8' tall.
Jun 09 13:44:02 <_sj_> seth : I envy you of your capacity to use vols in countries
Jun 09 13:44:05 <_sj_> that's somethingw e would love to be able to do
Jun 09 13:44:11 <_sj_> and are barely even considering talkinga bout
Jun 09 13:44:18 <_sj_> [sj : how do you deal with accountability?]
Jun 09 13:44:28 <_sj_> tim; we have 25 diff global strategic allies that operate in htese countries
Jun 09 13:44:47 <_sj_> lthey can get ... 100 people to help ounpack containers
Jun 09 13:44:51 <_sj_> it's the parents and people whow ant this for their kids!
Jun 09 13:45:02 <_sj_> seth ; two things for you : 1, do you want some content?
educational material?
Jun 09 13:45:15 <_sj_> tim : well... we always work through our partners. . we would put
this to our partners. they walays say yes, and it's always different.
Jun 09 13:45:19 <_sj_> they might want diff language or grades
Jun 09 13:45:22 <_sj_> we do ship sometimse egranaries
Jun 09 13:45:35 <bjordanprojector> it's used in some of the university settings
Jun 09 13:45:38 <bjordanprojector> not so much in primary schools
Jun 09 13:45:42 <bjordanprojector> 11million pages is 11 million pages
Jun 09 13:45:48 <bjordanprojector> the focus was primarily Africa
Jun 09 13:45:53 * mchua is zoning out for a bit in person and listening in on irc -
finding it hard to follow this conversation irl
Jun 09 13:46:03 <bjordanprojector> there are a lot of documents about the forming of
africa (?)
Jun 09 13:46:32 * bjordanprojector is bad at this
Jun 09 13:46:49 <bjordanprojector> the development function of giving away stuff is
a debilitating thing in lots of countries
Jun 09 13:46:53 <bjordanprojector> we're really opposed to it
Jun 09 13:47:10 <bjordanprojector> sometimes it's 2 years where they're saying we'll
take hte first step and we'll say no we'll take the first step
Jun 09 13:47:22 <bjordanprojector> seth: we'd be really happy to just have positives
and silence
Jun 09 13:47:40 <_sj_> seth : that's exciting, all the same. though I Suppose peoplewon't
always give honest reactions
Jun 09 13:47:46 <_sj_> tim : peace corps volunteers are good about that
Jun 09 13:47:51 <_sj_> they'll rip into you (if a program isn't run well)
Jun 09 13:47:56 <_sj_> and you could ask them to do the review
Jun 09 13:48:09 <_sj_> seth : (aside about cargo trailers)
Jun 09 13:48:57 <_sj_> as for shipping...
Jun 09 13:49:01 <_sj_> we have a policy against bribing
Jun 09 13:49:09 <_sj_> tradition often includes lots of bribes; it's a lousy tradition.
Jun 09 13:49:14 <_sj_> it ill be good for everyone if we can stuick together and not do it.
Jun 09 13:49:21 <_sj_> we do a loot of that, trying to get people to not do... w hae all
sorts of biases.
Jun 09 13:49:27 <_sj_> fem: what support system do you have?
Jun 09 13:50:13 <_sj_> notes about wcoe partners
Jun 09 13:50:16 <_sj_> on the website : /partner
Jun 09 13:51:00 <_sj_> tim: they are really baseic questions: who are you, why, what will
you do with these
Jun 09 13:51:07 <_sj_> where will you place them, will you use linux or windows
Jun 09 13:51:10 <_sj_> how does money work short/long term?
Jun 09 13:51:15 <_sj_> they anwer those, working their way through
Jun 09 13:51:20 <_sj_> some come back instantly with clear 40pg docs
Jun 09 13:51:23 <_sj_> others come back with 2pg docs
Jun 09 13:51:24 <_sj_> both are fine.
Jun 09 13:51:33 <_sj_> others come back talking about servers?
Jun 09 13:51:39 <_sj_> and they say "I am the principal server of the Lord"
Jun 09 13:51:43 <_sj_> and you say wow... but you know where you're working from
Jun 09 13:51:49 <_sj_> it can ake 2 yrs from those initial answers to answers that make sense
Jun 09 13:51:53 <_sj_> for someone who will ahve a lot of comptuers coming in
Jun 09 13:52:01 <_sj_> (presumably : they nhave to figure out what they want --ed.)
Jun 09 13:52:12 <_sj_> we're working at the bottom of everyhing; old computers, cheap,
spares; people have little previous experience.
Jun 09 13:52:42 <_sj_> fem: we're dealing with enw comps, but many similar problems. in
talking about even q's of us deployment,s people say oh yes! give us plaptops, we'l be great...
and then they don't know wht to do when they break
Jun 09 13:53:05 <_sj_> tim :the chapters for us are interesting; you'll run into the same thing:
everyone wants to do their own direction
Jun 09 13:53:12 <_sj_> we try to divide geographically so ther's something that makes sense.
Jun 09 13:53:21 <_sj_> :you wnat to help with bangladesh? great. you have to pay attention to
all of our Bangla work
Jun 09 13:53:31 <_sj_> or :you want to be involved with linux installations: help us think
through the whole system and help with that.
Jun 09 13:53:46 <_sj_> we try to get each chapter to take one mgmt and admin thing; dc took
marketing, others took fundraising to help out with fundraising.
Jun 09 13:53:50 <_sj_> usually those are goeographic, single country.
Jun 09 13:54:01 <_sj_> trying to get all to go in the same direction was... we had to
put together an org chart with titles. we wtn with a very traditional heirarchy
Jun 09 13:54:06 <_sj_> there are regional mngrs and program officers
Jun 09 13:54:15 <_sj_> in big countries like nigreia, or india with lots of sttses,
you have someone inbetween those two levls
Jun 09 13:54:19 <_sj_> a progam manager for that whole country
Jun 09 13:54:28 <_sj_> they watch eachotehr to keep things straight, the prog officers
can get help from soneone bove.
Jun 09 13:54:36 <_sj_> our whol tgoal -0 I'm the only paid staff - is to odo as much
virtually as possible.
Jun 09 13:54:44 <_sj_> fem : you've been there singce the beginning? can you talk
about the initial infra and what you started with?
Jun 09 13:54:52 <_sj_> and what didn't work?
Jun 09 13:55:04 <_sj_> tim : sure... the main thing we started with was a group that
said ; ok, we'll trust eachiother and try ou t a lot of things and make mistakes.
Jun 09 13:55:13 <_sj_> we wrote that down as part of our first personel policy; we
embraced msitake making
Jun 09 13:55:18 <_sj_> I"ve tried to introduce that to other odrgs where I'm on the board
Jun 09 13:55:25 <_sj_> they completely lost it, they didn't whtinkt hat should ever be
written down publicly
Jun 09 13:55:36 <_sj_> but in the betining we had no idea what we werd oing; didn't
know who to trust or listen to; we got ripped off a minimlal # of times
Jun 09 13:55:46 <_sj_> we came in doing some things like a predecessor org "east west
educational development foundation" had
Jun 09 13:55:52 <_sj_> we met with their board chari and exec dir as they were going
baknrupt.
Jun 09 13:55:58 <_sj_> "what would you do dinfferently?" and they told us
Jun 09 13:56:05 <_sj_> so we learned a lot about capital expenes
Jun 09 13:56:09 <_sj_> w went with completely donated space
Jun 09 13:56:14 <_sj_> we got freight companies in mult locations to help us out
Jun 09 13:56:17 <_sj_> a lot of it was supply chain logistics
Jun 09 13:56:26 <_sj_> and the volunteers -- aqt the start we said "everyone can dgo
in their own direction and enjoy it"
Jun 09 13:56:33 <_sj_> then it was difficult to say "we know waht we want : can you
offer one of these?"
Jun 09 13:57:36 <_sj_> (getting $, press, volunteers, tech, unis)
Jun 09 13:57:37 <_sj_> then everyone who wanted to do pr could share packs and improve them
Jun 09 13:57:37 <_sj_> and that worked great
Jun 09 13:57:37 <_sj_> we started this without wikis and the like, and slowly people
started joining who knew technology and gave us better tols
Jun 09 13:57:44 <_sj_> the main thinhg was : geting as quockly as possible to a dfeined
way of going forward
Jun 09 13:57:49 <_sj_> making mistakes and then limting things about what we're trying to do
Jun 09 13:57:58 <_sj_> then we started writing job decirptions for each of those 5 roles
Jun 09 13:58:07 <_sj_> so aevery chapter has 5 roles for this as coordinators
Jun 09 13:58:16 <_sj_> and teams that help ... in countries we started with those
questions and they're basically the same now as they werel
Jun 09 13:58:21 <_sj_> we started emphasizing you can be brief and not answer all
Jun 09 13:58:45 <_sj_> our job is to say yes, and it might take two years, but *our
job is to say yes*
Jun 09 13:58:53 <_sj_> and some people didn't understand and thought we would say no and
so wanted to get everything perfect
Jun 09 13:59:03 <_sj_> fem: and some peoplec ulturally want to be positive, not negative
Jun 09 13:59:25 <_sj_> tim : we have people sho wup... if we have peoplet ravelling anyway,
they are going to ar anyway for some other reaon, going with their spouse who has this job;
they ask if we have something for them to do
Jun 09 13:59:32 <_sj_> we say yes, meet with thes people, these adi orgs, they all come to
a meeting,
Jun 09 13:59:43 <_sj_> and it actually helps break through that kice; they can have a simple
conv about how it's okay to get thigns wrong, just commuincate.
Jun 09 13:59:46 <_sj_> andface to face it's a lot easier.
Jun 09 13:59:53 <_sj_> and they on do this sort of workhsop thing to help them sovle
and write dow the ansewrs.
Jun 09 14:00:12 <_sj_> fem : just to be sure ": for onsite things peopledo in countries
:T here's deployinf of theocmputer. is that everything?
Jun 09 14:00:21 <_sj_> tim : in almost all cases, they do that..
Jun 09 14:00:35 <_sj_> if we have a team going, it's 2 months. it might be a cranky
linux ltsp thin clietn installa nd we know the others won't do it themselves
Jun 09 14:00:44 <_sj_> otherwise they tend to do (installations themselves.
Jun 09 14:01:04 <_sj_> seth ; I saw expected cost / procesing is $67... mostly pII of
IV?
Jun 09 14:01:15 <_sj_> tim : thin clients are $27. we don't encourage that unles sthey
have capacity, or will have at eam come...
Jun 09 14:01:19 <_sj_> seth: what is the life expectancy?
Jun 09 14:01:24 <_sj_> tim : it depends on the sophistication and resilience of the
group.
Jun 09 14:01:35 <_sj_> in india : we've only been around 8 yrs, and they'r all still
working prety much.
Jun 09 14:02:02 <_sj_> in guatemala, mayhan group.. I met the guy after 3 years and
asked howm any wor still working
Jun 09 14:02:07 <_sj_> he was dumbounded and said of course they were al still working
Jun 09 14:02:10 <_sj_> it was a matter of pride
Jun 09 14:02:33 <_sj_> tim : they will always ak can you put in 40 extra hard drives..
pt in this motherboard or drive...
Jun 09 14:02:39 <_sj_> it cost nothing to pack up and send this stuff if you already
have the container going.
Jun 09 14:02:44 <_sj_> so we just add all these things, for part and spares and drives.
Jun 09 14:02:48 <_sj_> laptops it's always power adapters and they need another one.
Jun 09 14:02:55 <_sj_> they swap out parts very readily.
Jun 09 14:03:01 <_sj_> they will have things waiting for the next container to come
and fill them in
Jun 09 14:03:22 <_sj_> sj : what's the average lag b/t a request and a container
shiping out
Jun 09 14:03:27 <_sj_> tim : we can always starts hpping within a month.
Jun 09 14:03:31 <_sj_> it can sit on a ship for a long time while it is routed.
Jun 09 14:03:39 <_sj_> that is 45 days and can sit at the dock for a week ro 2 months
for each stop.
Jun 09 14:03:56 <_sj_> only 5% of the time it's over 2 months.
Jun 09 14:04:11 <_sj_> that's usually osome sort of major problem wherif someonw atns
to take a serious kickback... there's a wrestling match about whetehr they can take
15% of the computers
Jun 09 14:04:35 <_sj_> we get an invenetory from the recipients and peopelar eunhappy
fi they ar missing a part. and 5% or so have problems.
Jun 09 14:04:42 <_sj_> its'a mtter of ... containers getting dropped on its side and
braking thigns.
Jun 09 14:04:43 <_sj_> &c.
Jun 09 14:04:50 <_sj_> or after unlaoding in the warehouse floods come in and 100 are
underwater.
Jun 09 14:04:54 <_sj_> hard to plan for.
Jun 09 14:05:18 <_sj_> and if we reship things after a failed hsipment the people who
were in country to help out may vanish...
Jun 09 14:07:06 * bertf has quit ("Leaving.")
Open work time continued
Jun 09 15:00:19 <mchua> folks - brian and I have http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_To_Run_A_Jam outlined - feedback welcome as we start to fill it in Jun 09 15:42:26 * cjl (n=chatzill@12.44.50.248) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 16:01:28 * andreatl (n=alai@wireless-19-138.media.mit.edu) has joined #olpc-groups Jun 09 16:04:22 * sadgnot has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jun 09 16:18:12 <homunq> reading the backlog. just noting, you guys are cool. Jun 09 16:19:13 <ffm> homunq: O RLY? WE TEH AWESOMENESS!!1!! Jun 09 16:19:18 <ffm> </immaturity> Jun 09 16:25:11 <homunq> (getting $, press, volunteers, tech, unis) --- unis = ??? Jun 09 16:26:13 <isforinsects> homunq, universities Jun 09 16:26:18 <isforinsects> mchua, ping Jun 09 16:28:14 <homunq> This is amazing. Jun 09 16:28:43 <homunq> My big question, from my exp. here, is customs? Jun 09 16:28:53 <homunq> don't they eat you alive? Jun 09 16:28:58 <mchua> homunq: oh, we haven't posted our work up yet ;) Jun 09 16:29:00 <mchua> some good stuff from today Jun 09 16:29:18 <homunq> I mean, taxes, custom fees. Jun 09 16:29:24 <homunq> not cultural customs. Jun 09 16:29:30 <mchua> homunq: ooh, good question to ask tim - he's out of the room atm, I'll try to see if he's still here Jun 09 16:31:50 <homunq> also, I want the contact for the "guatemalan" group Jun 09 16:37:32 <mchua> homunq: ok, asked him Jun 09 16:37:41 <mchua> tim says it's not so bad Jun 09 16:37:46 <mchua> they ship en masse to one country at a time Jun 09 16:38:04 <mchua> what they do is - their org handles things from the us side, their partners handle thing from the recieving country side Jun 09 16:38:27 <mchua> their org has a set of template legal paperworks for shipping - pro forma invoices, bills of lading, etc. all the usual stuff you need to ship internationally Jun 09 16:38:32 <mchua> they send it to the customs dept of the country they are sending to Jun 09 16:38:35 <mchua> and say "hey is this ok" Jun 09 16:38:53 <mchua> (they start early - tim emphasiszed that is ipmortnat - as soon sa you start talking with a country, you tell them "go, find out about customs, because itt takes a while") Jun 09 16:39:06 <mchua> so they send these template docs to the customs dept of the country they are trying to ship to Jun 09 16:39:19 <mchua> and go back and forth revisign them and "customizing" until the customs dept is happy with the forms Jun 09 16:39:27 <mchua> (rephrasing, removing certain words, etc) Jun 09 16:39:58 <mchua> he also said that if you use something like fedex, they take care of all that paperwork stuff for you, but charge extra - but for one-off, time sensitive things, it's one way to get around it Jun 09 16:40:02 <mchua> not so much for their business, though Jun 09 16:40:03 <homunq> and they can usually get away with paying nominal amounts? Jun 09 16:40:36 <homunq> because I have tried this stuff at microscale here and that was the dealbreaker. Jun 09 16:40:49 <mchua> microscale == small scale, or a specific store? Jun 09 16:40:55 <homunq> probably because I didn't plan for it though. Jun 09 16:41:01 <homunq> small scale. Jun 09 16:42:33 <homunq> OK I gotta go, but thanks. Jun 09 16:43:16 <mchua> homunq: oh - well, they do large scale, and plan way in advance Jun 09 16:43:19 <mchua> homunq: have fun