Journal, reloaded/IRC transcript 2008-10-15

Raw dump of IRC transcript logs of cscott's talk. Please ask for clarification if something is confusing - scott talks fast and I couldn't type everything, and typos are all over this. Mchua 18:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Oct 15 12:08:52 <mchua|xo>	Hey guys - cscott is about to start his journal talk and I'll be transcribing as best I can in here
Oct 15 12:09:14 <mchua|xo>	Also feel free to holler if you're not in the room but want to ask questions (pls flag with RELAY: before your question) and I and others will try to pass it on
Oct 15 12:09:37 <tomeu>	ooh, awesome
Oct 15 12:09:42 <tomeu>	thanks mchua|!
Oct 15 12:09:54 <mchua|xo>	np :) repaying the favor for the many times it's been given to me
Oct 15 12:10:51 <mchua|xo>	recording start
Oct 15 12:11:10 <mchua|xo>	Ok
Oct 15 12:11:14 <mchua|xo>	So I'm cscott and i work at olp
Oct 15 12:11:20 <mchua|xo>	i;m goignto give a talk about new ideas for journal
Oct 15 12:11:25 <mchua|xo>	i'll give the requisite discliaimer that a
Oct 15 12:11:28 <mchua|xo>	 most of the good ideas aren't mine
Oct 15 12:11:38 <mchua|xo>	BORROWE GREAT IDEAS FROM AS WE GO
Oct 15 12:11:43 <mchua|xo>	AND BUT IF I FORGET JUST ASSUME THTAIT'S NOT MY IDEA
Oct 15 12:11:48 <mchua|xo>	THE SECOND ONE IS THAT WHEN WE GET THORUGH THE ACTUAL GUI STUFF
Oct 15 12:11:55 <mchua|xo>	none of this has gone through our designers yet
Oct 15 12:11:56 <mchua|xo>	(yay capslock)
Oct 15 12:12:04 <mchua|xo>	so even's going to hate that some buttons are square and some buttons are run and...
Oct 15 12:12:09 <mchua|xo>	he'll give me a good talking to late and w'ell fix that one
Oct 15 12:12:13 <mchua|xo>	last, i'm deoig this on my laptop
Oct 15 12:12:17 <mchua|xo>	so when we get to looking at files and stuff
Oct 15 12:12:26 <mchua|xo>	we'll going to see the things that i work w whcih are nto teh thigns that kdis work with
Oct 15 12:12:36 <mchua|xo>	so most of the interesting files are going to be lik source code and stuff bc that's what i've been working on reclently
Oct 15 12:12:39 <mchua|xo>	i'm an old school unix hacker
Oct 15 12:12:40 <mchua|xo>	discliamer:
Oct 15 12:12:41 <mchua|xo>	for youg nkids
Oct 15 12:12:47 <mchua|xo>	their files aren't really going to look like my fiels
Oct 15 12:13:05 <mchua|xo>	so if i do somethign that works well for me tand is scaleable and growable and if i let kids grow up to be bearded unix hackers
Oct 15 12:13:09 <mchua|xo>	existing journal dseign
Oct 15 12:13:16 <mchua|xo>	for 2 reasons - for peope watching online maybe never seen jouranl before
Oct 15 12:13:20 <mchua|xo>	also design not quite implemetned yet
Oct 15 12:13:25 <mchua|xo>	sowe 'll start with what it should look like
Oct 15 12:13:36 <mchua|xo>	SLIDE
Oct 15 12:13:44 <mchua|xo>	so we've got action view
Oct 15 12:13:46 <mchua|xo>	BACKSLIDE
Oct 15 12:13:50 <mchua|xo>	any questions should direct to eben
Oct 15 12:13:57 <mchua|xo>	action view the thigns iv'e done itno diary form
Oct 15 12:14:04 <mchua|xo>	unlike a traiditonal file manager, some of these things odn't actually have files assoc with them
Oct 15 12:14:10 <mchua|xo>	almost all of them do, and it took a lot for eben to convince me that someone might not
Oct 15 12:14:26 <mchua|xo>	i added some objects, idid some other stuff but other things like i copied a file to my usb key
Oct 15 12:14:32 <mchua|xo>	file may not be around, usb key may nto be around but it'sl there
Oct 15 12:14:40 <mchua|xo>	i went and played with X, shows up n my jouranl too
Oct 15 12:14:55 <mchua|xo>	expand, it shows the actual things that i've been workginw tih
Oct 15 12:14:57 <mchua|xo>	so that's the cgtion view
Oct 15 12:15:02 <mchua|xo>	then there's the object view whichi s a mroe rtada fm view
Oct 15 12:15:07 <mchua|xo>	this are the files you av seen more or less
Oct 15 12:15:12 <mchua|xo>	you can debate whether they're fiels or instances or what
Oct 15 12:15:16 <mchua|xo>	chronological order, thigns i did most recently
Oct 15 12:15:18 <mchua|xo>	start things that reimportant
Oct 15 12:15:25 <mchua|xo>	and i have some checkboxes that can do obth operations at once
Oct 15 12:15:27 <mchua|xo>	there's a search bar
Oct 15 12:15:31 <mchua|xo>	i can search for anything, anyone, at any time
Oct 15 12:15:39 <mchua|xo>	the right click entry will show
Oct 15 12:15:41 <mchua|xo>	more detailed preview
Oct 15 12:15:53 <mchua|xo>	so in may ways it would be he actual image i dcan vie details view
Oct 15 12:15:55 <mchua|xo>	whichi s what that button does
Oct 15 12:16:07 <mchua|xo>	(request to show previous slide)
Oct 15 12:16:13 <mchua|xo>	so the title, the application ia made it in,
Oct 15 12:16:21 <mchua|xo>	resume, resume with some other activity, copy to, send to, view details, erase
Oct 15 12:16:29 <mchua|xo>	(reading the text on the slide of the right click popup)
Oct 15 12:16:43 <mchua|xo>	i'm not... so, I like most of this I'm not compeltely in love with it
Oct 15 12:17:04 <mchua|xo>	so somef othse operations here can be doen wtih these heckboxes and if you can sort of I'm not sure if I"m confinveced i want to rclick and scroll down to erase
Oct 15 12:17:14 <mchua|xo>	for gmail you have to click on all these things and click erase on top
Oct 15 12:17:29 <mchua|xo>	then you actually get to some real examples - moving the preview icon here is really hard
Oct 15 12:17:45 <mchua|xo>	image files aren'et named, you get underscoe 546.jpeg or something
Oct 15 12:17:54 <mchua|xo>	this is where wel'll we'll come back to this later on
Oct 15 12:18:11 <mchua|xo>	but i'd like to see some place for a smaller preview icon, the activity icon is important there, some peopel have tried to make hyrpcids
Oct 15 12:18:15 <mchua|xo>	they'll do this iwh ta watermark over the real image
Oct 15 12:18:18 <mchua|xo>	but we'll come back to that
Oct 15 12:18:25 <mchua|xo>	its' a godo qeustions for design aftfer me
Oct 15 12:18:41 <mchua|xo>	he's got a tool animation if I drag this I can go back in time and see how far back ni time I'm going
Oct 15 12:18:44 <mchua|xo>	that's not implemented yet
Oct 15 12:18:45 <mchua|xo>	not for me
Oct 15 12:18:50 <mchua|xo>	actually what I really like sthumbnail view here
Oct 15 12:19:02 <mchua|xo>	this is aone page inso the i've gotall these images and i cant'really tell what they are without mousing over them
Oct 15 12:19:04 <mchua|xo>	these are thumbnail views
Oct 15 12:19:11 <mchua|xo>	it would be nice if this wasn't just ani con but actually some text from things
Oct 15 12:19:41 <mchua|xo>	it's very important that if you type a search that matches nothing that you have something come up that says no matching entries found
Oct 15 12:19:47 <mchua|xo>	or they think they've broken the machine
Oct 15 12:19:53 <mchua|xo>	this is the details screen which i'm not messing with at all
Oct 15 12:19:54 <mchua|xo>	i love it
Oct 15 12:19:58 <mchua|xo>	you can talk about it w eben
Oct 15 12:20:04 <mchua|xo>	you have preview here, text here, text extensions
Oct 15 12:20:09 <mchua|xo>	all the metadata you could possibly be itnerested in
Oct 15 12:20:15 <mchua|xo>	something here that in ever realized before i went lokoing for it
Oct 15 12:20:23 <mchua|xo>	this dropdown box here which you can - the idea is i modified it 2 mins ago
Oct 15 12:20:34 <mchua|xo>	if ai clicked i'd alo see the things i did an hour ago, a long time ago
Oct 15 12:20:45 <mchua|xo>	that's also parr of the big ball of wax that i'm not going to
Oct 15 12:21:02 <mchua|xo>	so if we can get back gto here...
Oct 15 12:21:03 <mchua|xo>	so!
Oct 15 12:21:09 <mchua|xo>	lets' just say the big problem with this is - this is how it should look
Oct 15 12:21:14 <mchua|xo>	it's woudl beonwderful if it actually looked at this
Oct 15 12:21:18 <mchua|xo>	most kids tondt' really naem their documents well
Oct 15 12:21:33 <mchua|xo>	curernt system has a bug bc if we haten' done version yet, every time is ave somethign i get one more entry in ehre
Oct 15 12:21:42 <mchua|xo>	so tehre's a whoel bunch of things that say write activity write activity record activity
Oct 15 12:21:52 <mchua|xo>	blah blahb over again there's no ingo not really godo aidea not really contextual info to figure out wha'ts actually here
Oct 15 12:21:58 <mchua|xo>	and um the avialiby to orfanige my file, very liiltea bility
Oct 15 12:22:10 <mchua|xo>	so there is ome tags, there is some search function on the tags, but it's not really exposed in thes ay tthat makes mpeopel comfy w
Oct 15 12:22:14 <mchua|xo>	this is my schoolwork and ic an search fo rit
Oct 15 12:22:26 <mchua|xo>	peopel who have used computjers for a logn tiem is they do hierarchical
Oct 15 12:22:31 <mchua|xo>	here is one not to do
Oct 15 12:22:35 <mchua|xo>	this is one mlinux like file manager
Oct 15 12:22:42 <mchua|xo>	"the time traveling file manager" from kde
Oct 15 12:22:50 <mchua|xo>	has a nicwe features here, the tile bar that I can drag back and forth...
Oct 15 12:23:02 <mchua|xo>	so ehre's also we'll add some anecdotal stories...
Oct 15 12:23:10 <mchua|xo>	from actual user expereinces, it's not just 6 years olds who finds this
Oct 15 12:23:18 <mchua|xo>	we stil ahve learned files and fodlers so we propose this as the soln to everything
Oct 15 12:23:38 <mchua|xo>	inexperienced users, where inexperienced means "not unix hacker" are havignt eh same kinds of files and folders problems that kids do
Oct 15 12:23:54 <mchua|xo>	(someone) has rolled out a server across the entire city's infrasstructure (talking about some deployment)
Oct 15 12:24:03 <mchua|xo>	the thing they did that make a huge amt of diff in the # of frustrared queries
Oct 15 12:24:11 <mchua|xo>	there's a tiny little button in the...
Oct 15 12:24:15 <mchua|xo>	"document as email" button
Oct 15 12:24:16 *	is4 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Oct 15 12:24:22 <mchua|xo>	and i can look at this document i'm looking at right now and document it
Oct 15 12:24:36 <mchua|xo>	but if you actually think of all thes steps required to document somethgn as email and send it to a friend
Oct 15 12:24:38 <mchua|xo>	in most cases
Oct 15 12:24:44 <mchua|xo>	i can't click just the save button
Oct 15 12:24:49 <mchua|xo>	i have to do file, save as, then there's the magical...
Oct 15 12:25:01 <mchua|xo>	when i go to save, they'l gvie me some random place on my filesystem
Oct 15 12:25:21 <mchua|xo>	this si in openoffice, if i open any other application in my system i'll se a different looking dialog
Oct 15 12:25:28 <mchua|xo>	and now i save it, and now it's gone somewhere, i odn't know wehre
Oct 15 12:25:35 <mchua|xo>	so now i hvae to close this program, I have to got...
Oct 15 12:25:39 <mchua|xo>	maybe applications.. maybe my email is somewhere here
Oct 15 12:25:42 <mchua|xo>	 i have eto find it ahve to open it
Oct 15 12:25:52 <mchua|xo>	and then i'll have to find antoher little button that says "attach to document"
Oct 15 12:25:57 <mchua|xo>	and then I have to go through some other filepath...
Oct 15 12:26:12 <mchua|xo>	it looks like this - which is looking completely different, this one shows dotfiles too, and now I have to find...
Oct 15 12:26:25 <mchua|xo>	it turns out that this one was in projects/olpc/git/joruanl2/foo b/c that's where the last thing I was working on was
Oct 15 12:26:36 <mchua|xo>	so now I have to find this.. now HI have to attach it... adn then am I home free? maybe. I hope so.
Oct 15 12:26:44 <mchua|xo>	so tisn' tnot just small kids that have probels with this
Oct 15 12:26:47 <mchua|xo>	files and folders are not really a very good solution
Oct 15 12:26:54 <mchua|xo>	this save everythign to the desktop and that works for a while
Oct 15 12:26:57 <mchua|xo>	and then I get somethign like this
Oct 15 12:27:00 <mchua|xo>	(BIG MESSY DUMP)
Oct 15 12:27:05 <cjb>	:)
Oct 15 12:27:07 <mchua|xo>	and ti's hard for me to figure out what my files and folders are
Oct 15 12:27:26 <aa>	lol
Oct 15 12:27:26 <cjb>	it would be really nice to have a way to find the things I've been working with recently that doesn't involve all this crap
Oct 15 12:27:35 <cjb>	and this is what GNOME's Journal folks are working on
Oct 15 12:27:37 <mchua|xo>	they came up with this 'recently used' thing in gnome now that...
Oct 15 12:27:43 *	cjl wonders if they are showing a picture of my desktop
Oct 15 12:27:51 <mchua|xo>	(question from egarrison that I miss)
Oct 15 12:28:00 <mchua|xo>	cjl: it looks a lot like mine too ;)
Oct 15 12:28:06 <cjb>	<erik> having recently used should solve this
Oct 15 12:28:17 <cjb>	<scott> there's a separate recently-used list for each application!
Oct 15 12:28:25 <mchua|xo>	<3 cjb
Oct 15 12:28:33 <mchua|xo>	ther's aost his shortcuts folder here and interesting to see largo talk
Oct 15 12:28:43 <mchua|xo>	in all the desktop hes' every looke at - this is always balnekd
Oct 15 12:28:45 <mchua|xo>	blank
Oct 15 12:28:49 <mchua|xo>	nobody ever uses it
Oct 15 12:28:57 <cjb>	(this is the shortcuts bar in the gtkfilechooser)
Oct 15 12:29:06 <mchua|xo>	so now we're rtaling about how you organize stuff
Oct 15 12:29:09 <cjb>	okay, here's a story
Oct 15 12:29:12 <mchua|xo>	and the kids all like tags these days
Oct 15 12:29:21 <mchua|xo>	everythign goes in exactly one place which is kind of limiting
Oct 15 12:29:25 <mchua|xo>	with tags i can put thigns im ultple places
Oct 15 12:29:30 <mchua|xo>	this is in my mstone folder, in my other folder
Oct 15 12:29:37 <mchua|xo>	but i'm old, i' used hirarchially structuer paths everywhere
Oct 15 12:29:44 <mchua|xo>	iv'e got all these dirs on mys ys already
Oct 15 12:29:49 <mchua|xo>	but i oudln't come up with a good reason why this was necessary
Oct 15 12:29:58 <mchua|xo>	it's like arandom selection of tags - but they had structure
Oct 15 12:30:07 <mchua|xo>	so i took all the files of my laptop which has 10+ years of files
Oct 15 12:30:21 <cjb>	http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Experiments_with_unordered_paths
Oct 15 12:30:23 <mchua|xo>	i'm going to show them all the places where you can't jsust throw the path componetns without order
Oct 15 12:30:27 <cjb>	(has the details of this experiments)
Oct 15 12:30:32 <cjb>	(if I got the URL right)
Oct 15 12:30:33 <mchua|xo>	that bar/foo is different from foo/bar
Oct 15 12:30:40 <mchua|xo>	so I wrote the script and i ran it on all my files in my /home dir
Oct 15 12:30:45 <mchua|xo>	and it turned out exactly zero cases
Oct 15 12:30:48 <mchua|xo>	where the ordering of tags made a difference
Oct 15 12:30:52 <mchua|xo>	and my midn exploed at that point
Oct 15 12:30:55 <mchua|xo>	 iwas like o crap
Oct 15 12:31:05 <mchua|xo>	i've got loads of crap there
Oct 15 12:31:14 <mchua|xo>	iv'e got files unpacked fiels and thingsk the gtk source tree, ltos of things from lots of other project
Oct 15 12:31:17 <mchua|xo>	so i had to rethink my world
Oct 15 12:31:23 <mchua|xo>	turns out there were not exactly 0 instances
Oct 15 12:31:28 <mchua|xo>	but none of them were compelling
Oct 15 12:31:33 <cjb>	sphinx project from CMU
Oct 15 12:31:43 <mchua|xo>	one of them was a speech rec project that... sphinx
Oct 15 12:31:53 <mchua|xo>	has because it's java, it was sphingx/test/foo
Oct 15 12:31:57 <cjb>	sphinx has sphinx/test/foo, output in test/sphinx/foo
Oct 15 12:32:25 <cjb>	duplicate tags are important
Oct 15 12:32:33 <mchua|xo>	places like debian packages
Oct 15 12:32:50 <mchua|xo>	so it turns out that if you allow dup tags that gets you 90% of the exampels go
Oct 15 12:32:55 <mchua|xo>	foo foo is a different tag than just foo by itself
Oct 15 12:33:00 <mchua|xo>	but you almost never need tfo use ordered paths
Oct 15 12:33:05 <cjb>	mchua|xo: your nick had me worried, I thought you were typing (10x faster than me) on an XO keyboard :)
Oct 15 12:33:22 <mchua|xo>	so this wasn't erally an envelope sketch because it's too long for an envelope, but
Oct 15 12:33:23 <mchua|xo>	SLIDE
Oct 15 12:33:35 <mchua|xo>	cjb: I am cultivating my magica powers to do so next :)
Oct 15 12:33:44 <mchua|xo>	so here's an idea of how you could add a little bit of better support for tags and structures in the journal
Oct 15 12:33:45 <mchua|xo>	so
Oct 15 12:33:46 <mchua|xo>	here's my files
Oct 15 12:33:49 <mchua|xo>	this is extremely ugly but...
Oct 15 12:34:06 <mchua|xo>	in my joural tagginga nd markesr for the day to separate them works a lot better than having a bar that looks for the exact time it was done
Oct 15 12:34:13 <mchua|xo>	so I pust it in columns (today, saturday...)
Oct 15 12:34:27 <mchua|xo>	so i'm e basically listing all the directoreis that stuff is in astags
Oct 15 12:34:36 <mchua|xo>	which is completely ignored except if you really care
Oct 15 12:34:39 <mchua|xo>	but other than that it looks gmail like
Oct 15 12:34:44 <mchua|xo>	i have my fiel name, my file type
Oct 15 12:34:47 <mchua|xo>	and a list of tag suggestions over here
Oct 15 12:34:55 <mchua|xo>	but thew ay i got this is a list of all the tags that i've made
Oct 15 12:34:57 <mchua|xo>	it's like folders
Oct 15 12:35:12 <mchua|xo>	this makes it a little more discoverable (to have them on the sidebar to left)
Oct 15 12:35:35 <mchua|xo>	but so this middle section is suggestions
Oct 15 12:35:37 <mchua|xo>	the most recently used stuff
Oct 15 12:35:41 <mchua|xo>	or the what things have you done recnetly
Oct 15 12:35:43 <mchua|xo>	so we'll talk about that more later
Oct 15 12:36:00 <mchua|xo>	and that's brightly stole some epipharnies when you bookmark stuff an ephiphny it t populates something with the most recent tags
Oct 15 12:36:03 <mchua|xo>	epiphany == browser
Oct 15 12:36:23 <mchua|xo>	all the peopel with fiels in your brains these are special tags with (something) written in
Oct 15 12:36:27 <mchua|xo>	so if you want tomake hierarchial structures you can
Oct 15 12:36:37 <mchua|xo>	if you have a sbudirectory called activities
Oct 15 12:36:41 <mchua|xo>	(oh! something == slashes)
Oct 15 12:37:04 <mchua|xo>	so if I wanted to see the Activitys/ I could click this tags and i could see allt the things that were tagged with the activityes tag that is to say they're from that folder
Oct 15 12:37:10 <mchua|xo>	i've taken evens sort of long swearch bar
Oct 15 12:37:14 <mchua|xo>	and exhanged most of that spac for the search
Oct 15 12:37:23 <mchua|xo>	so the idea is now who
Oct 15 12:37:28 <mchua|xo>	is file tags that i wrote with chirss or whatever
Oct 15 12:37:33 <mchua|xo>	and what is files i wrote in pippy
Oct 15 12:37:38 <cjb>	chirss?!? ;-)
Oct 15 12:37:41 <mchua|xo>	where is really contorversioa
Oct 15 12:37:47 <mchua|xo>	so here's the default place whichi s thigns that were in my jouranl
Oct 15 12:37:53 <mchua|xo>	but i can use the - look in my entire filesystem
Oct 15 12:38:08 <mchua|xo>	removable devices
Oct 15 12:38:15 <cjb>	can move from journal, to filesystem, to removable devices
Oct 15 12:38:19 <mchua|xo>	(usb, sd..)
Oct 15 12:38:31 <mchua|xo>	(for those following along, this makes way more sense with the screenshot)
Oct 15 12:38:40 <cjb>	common deployment question:  "put this file in this directory"
Oct 15 12:38:44 <cjb>	old journal can't do that
Oct 15 12:38:47 <mchua|xo>	the old journal had no way to do things like "put this in the boot dir of the usb stick"
Oct 15 12:38:53 <mchua|xo>	so now I give it the tag "boot/"
Oct 15 12:38:56 <mchua|xo>	and it's in tehre
Oct 15 12:39:11 <mchua|xo>	and if i'm given a usb stick with all sorts o fmusic in the something/ dir it all comes up witht hat
Oct 15 12:39:24 <mchua|xo>	(missed wad's q)
Oct 15 12:39:33 <mchua|xo>	I 'd liek tot hink i could drag these tasg into these projects
Oct 15 12:39:45 <mchua|xo>	usually i'd just ad mroe tags... but if I wanted to put ti to a specific place here...
Oct 15 12:39:50 <mchua|xo>	ordered tags don't matter at all in efal life
Oct 15 12:39:52 <cjb>	<wad> how do I add a subdirectory?
Oct 15 12:39:55 <mchua|xo>	but i spepect that there'll be rarely many cases
Oct 15 12:40:05 <cjb>	<scott> use magic ordered tags with / on the end
Oct 15 12:40:05 <mchua|xo>	so I culd put the right place int the front of this text
Oct 15 12:40:13 <mchua|xo>	so i fi made a boot/ tag it also makes a boot directory
Oct 15 12:40:18 <mchua|xo>	and if I don't put anythinge sle it'll put that dir in the top plevel
Oct 15 12:40:36 <mchua|xo>	so maybe it does the wrnog things yand you could just drag and drop them (to reorder i assume)
Oct 15 12:40:44 <mchua|xo>	so here's when, which is the= it displays a calendar
Oct 15 12:40:52 <mchua|xo>	what I really want is the widget that eben will desgin for me
Oct 15 12:41:01 <mchua|xo>	it will look at the set of days we want the same zoomign interface that we have elsewhere in the system
Oct 15 12:41:08 <mchua|xo>	did id do it yesterday/ last month/ last year
Oct 15 12:41:09 <cjb>	gtkcalendarwidget doesn't let you do date region searches, just pick one day
Oct 15 12:41:18 <cjb>	no way to select entire month
Oct 15 12:41:18 <aa>	* the smell of molten fingers fills the room *
Oct 15 12:41:23 <cjb>	:)
Oct 15 12:41:28 <mchua|xo>	(mm, toasty)
Oct 15 12:41:42 <mchua|xo>	but hwer are all the thigns that if you are familair with gmail
Oct 15 12:41:50 <mchua|xo>	i can..
Oct 15 12:41:59 <mchua|xo>	these icons are more like placeholders but ican copy them to some device, i can move them to some device
Oct 15 12:42:04 <mchua|xo>	I can delete them all
Oct 15 12:42:05 <mchua|xo>	AAH!
Oct 15 12:42:22 <mchua|xo>	the first thign that iw watn is "find other things like these"
Oct 15 12:42:27 <mchua|xo>	something that helsp you find other thigns like these
Oct 15 12:42:30 <mchua|xo>	and i think this is add tag and remove tag
Oct 15 12:42:34 <mchua|xo>	these do thes ame kind of thing they do with gmail
Oct 15 12:42:39 <mchua|xo>	whichis the things i selected has tags already
Oct 15 12:42:51 <mchua|xo>	okay, so that's the modkup.
Oct 15 12:42:53 <mchua|xo>	so I"ll take questison
Oct 15 12:42:56 <mchua|xo>	and then we'll do really cool stuff
Oct 15 12:42:59 <mchua|xo>	(channel? questions?)
Oct 15 12:43:30 <mchua|xo>	aiee, cjb I can't lipread henry... help?
Oct 15 12:43:41 <mchua|xo>	scott: the tags are really just tags
Oct 15 12:43:44 <cjb>	<henry> what happens if I remove a tag-slash?
Oct 15 12:43:45 <mchua|xo>	so I've got - you'll se these in the next demo
Oct 15 12:43:52 <mchua|xo>	all the thigns on the other side jsut becomes regular tags
Oct 15 12:43:59 <cjb>	<scott> the other slash tags become unordered tags, maybe?
Oct 15 12:44:00 <mchua|xo>	the other tags aren't speciali slash tags any more
Oct 15 12:44:07 <mchua|xo>	and if I wanted to recreate the di structure I could drag those back and have them hook on to the end of my tag string
Oct 15 12:44:28 <mchua|xo>	if I delete the schoolwork tag, turtles is just a tag, the files get mored into the Jouranl/ directory]
Oct 15 12:44:44 <mchua|xo>	s/mored/moved
Oct 15 12:45:03 <cjl>	RELAY would tags move with files from XO to XO?
Oct 15 12:45:17 <mchua|xo>	so my first idea for that...
Oct 15 12:45:24 <mchua|xo>	i started thinking - waht is this really like to use?
Oct 15 12:45:24 <tomeu>	RELAY so slash tags are meant just to interface with the file system?
Oct 15 12:45:33 <mchua|xo>	which is something that is tag structured, where the order of the dir componetns don' tmater?
Oct 15 12:45:48 <mchua|xo>	so all these file are in /home/olpc/blah/blah/blah
Oct 15 12:45:52 <cjb>	tomeu: yes.
Oct 15 12:46:04 <mchua|xo>	cjl: will relay
Oct 15 12:46:07 <cjb>	(that's from me, not Scott)
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Oct 15 12:46:38 <mchua|xo>	it rusns out that i was laboring under the weight of the hierarchical files sytem asll the time, in fact it was makng me do more work
Oct 15 12:46:55 <mchua|xo>	it's basically like - well, lets' start playign around with these ideas in a regular style
Oct 15 12:46:58 <mchua|xo>	so I made a tag cd program
Oct 15 12:47:13 <mchua|xo>	whenI changed dirs - i changed paths - it would suggest that in the future you can get here mroe easily by usign thse 2 words
Oct 15 12:47:17 <mchua|xo>	and it would just jump me there
Oct 15 12:47:25 <mchua|xo>	so if wiat tend to get to ol/cpsugar/toolkit/solar/sugar/blah
Oct 15 12:47:31 <mchua|xo>	i could just type two of them and it would drop me in
Oct 15 12:47:41 <mchua|xo>	it would tll me sugar space and it woudl tell me the thigns tagged wtih sugar
Oct 15 12:47:43 <mchua|xo>	that woudl be useful
Oct 15 12:47:58 <mchua|xo>	"sugar g" is probably all that's needed to get to that directory
Oct 15 12:48:08 <mchua|xo>	i think it's an itneresting way to do the tagged files ystem w/o using the joural stuff
Oct 15 12:48:13 <mchua|xo>	what if we didn't need a fancy cd program
Oct 15 12:48:18 <tomeu>	I guess the slides aren't on the net yet, right?
Oct 15 12:48:20 <mchua|xo>	but had a fielsystem that made dirs for allt he palces you can go
Oct 15 12:48:32 <mchua|xo>	so if I'm in... I wuld see all the tags in that system
Oct 15 12:48:39 <mchua|xo>	tomeu: probaly not, he was modifying them right before we started :)
Oct 15 12:49:00 <mchua|xo>	so I can make an mstone directory and then michael could see that stuff
Oct 15 12:49:00 <tomeu>	ok, I may have more questions afterwards ;)
Oct 15 12:49:04 <mchua|xo>	it has some interesting security properties
Oct 15 12:49:10 <mchua|xo>	tomeu: we'll probalby ahve a better transcript afterwards too
Oct 15 12:49:22 <mchua|xo>	and it tursn otu that I think that te unix security model generally works liek this
Oct 15 12:49:23 <tomeu>	oh, no video recording?
Oct 15 12:49:32 <mchua|xo>	because most system services don't recursively go through these direcroeis
Oct 15 12:49:41 <mchua|xo>	tomeu: video, audio, and slideshare + transcript
Oct 15 12:49:44 <mchua|xo>	(separate high-qual audio)
Oct 15 12:50:00 <mchua|xo>	so if i"m in a directy and I didn't want o modify inkscape or ff or wahtever i could moutnt his tag view of the dir
Oct 15 12:50:02 <mchua|xo>	but the directoires are just tags
Oct 15 12:50:09 <tomeu>	awesome!
Oct 15 12:50:18 <mchua|xo>	so i can tag this w video and i am in this toher program now it'll show as tagged w video
Oct 15 12:50:42 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: kids don't have preconceptions
Oct 15 12:50:58 <cjb>	cavallo: there are legitimate ideas in computing that we want to take root
Oct 15 12:51:04 <cjb>	perhaps 'naming a file' or something like that
Oct 15 12:51:15 <mchua|xo>	(and... I'm... lost with david's question - thanks cjb)
Oct 15 12:51:30 <mchua|xo>	scott: global interface - if I don't... a kid starting out isn't actually goint ohave any tags here
Oct 15 12:51:32 <mchua|xo>	except maybe activities
Oct 15 12:51:40 <cjb>	cavallo: when in this model are they making tags?
Oct 15 12:51:46 <cjb>	when in their activity?
Oct 15 12:51:51 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: when will they say "when do I make a tag?"
Oct 15 12:51:52 <cjb>	scott: you should talk to Eben
Oct 15 12:52:02 <mchua|xo>	scott: i have a handwavy mental model - i think of gmail's subject lien
Oct 15 12:52:11 <mchua|xo>	you can make a msg w/o a subject line in gmail, but they make it difficult
Oct 15 12:52:15 <mchua|xo>	it 'll never force them to make a godo name
Oct 15 12:52:20 <mchua|xo>	but we could gently suggest that they might do it
Oct 15 12:52:35 <mchua|xo>	eben: (says something I can't hear)
Oct 15 12:53:03 <cjb>	naming is kinda orthogonal
Oct 15 12:53:11 <mchua|xo>	scott: for things on my hdd - like images, i never name them, they're img_5235.jpg
Oct 15 12:53:16 <mchua|xo>	i can ignroe that... it's going to be optional
Oct 15 12:53:23 <cjb>	<eben> we might suggest naming when kids click stop
Oct 15 12:53:27 <mchua|xo>	i think ti's kind of an orthogonal issue i thinkw e can do better in ehcouraging people to give names
Oct 15 12:53:34 <cjb>	on an activity that hasn't been named yet, maybe give a suggestion
Oct 15 12:54:07 <mchua|xo>	(cjl, haven't forgotten you - each question is taking a long time to answer :)
Oct 15 12:54:55 <mchua|xo>	scott: tags and structure - this is a key idea in computing, but i'm not convicne the hierarchy is
Oct 15 12:55:09 <mchua|xo>	i'll make a blanet statement - "they key problem I'm rying to solve is interoperation with the outside world."
Oct 15 12:55:30 <mchua|xo>	there are lots of ther machiens around someone will give you a usb key with files on it and you'll use an aplicatiotn that hasn't been sugarized and weird thigns happen
Oct 15 12:55:46 <mchua|xo>	so what i'm trying to do is can we provide a better means to interoperate with that when it happens
Oct 15 12:55:59 <mchua|xo>	i think a common problem is that they can't find their files
Oct 15 12:56:06 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: that's right - they can't find their files, not that they can't interoperate with...
Oct 15 12:56:30 <mchua|xo>	it's an all xo environment in pilots - i think that is th issue - that's not going to generalize, to say use an usb key
Oct 15 12:56:45 <mchua|xo>	so in this world interoperability across platforms might be an issue but not there
Oct 15 12:56:55 <mchua|xo>	scott: but interop for devs is important - i can't dogfood because of it
Oct 15 12:57:22 <mchua|xo>	i believe this is soething that would be in the jouranl, we could use it to grow our userbase
Oct 15 12:57:49 <mchua|xo>	eben: i think we can take the jouranl and slolwoion troduce the notion of tags i fyo u wan introcue the notion of tags... if you think of a title with all the wrods in the title
Oct 15 12:57:52 <mchua|xo>	you'rea lready thinking about the tags
Oct 15 12:58:05 <mchua|xo>	so if the title... and somethign suggested tags, all of a sudden you ahve this easy way fo clicking on things
Oct 15 12:58:28 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: i took these pictures - and therea re mulitple ways of thinking about it - but if you have kids will they be able to do stuff with the stuf ftha'ts on the machine
Oct 15 12:58:40 <mchua|xo>	nameing it ,and forcing it, and making it diffiuclt ot tona meit adding more to the tags it at thes ame time thorugh the joruanl gets you something
Oct 15 12:58:43 <mchua|xo>	but that'ss thte use case of the kids
Oct 15 12:58:55 <mchua|xo>	(multiple people talking at once)
Oct 15 12:59:08 <mchua|xo>	mstone: i think you're talking about a way for people to think in many simultaneous ways
Oct 15 12:59:31 <mchua|xo>	dfa: i thin people are comig from this from a wide variety of places
Oct 15 12:59:35 <mchua|xo>	to cularify what's going on here
Oct 15 12:59:41 <mchua|xo>	the serach capability is alreayd implemented has been for months
Oct 15 12:59:52 <mchua|xo>	where if you write a write doc and you got search yo can search for jouranl you can search rfor text you wrote inside write
Oct 15 12:59:55 <mchua|xo>	and that document wil pop up
Oct 15 13:00:01 <mchua|xo>	if you wrote a memo and called it memo, if you remembered it, that's fine
Oct 15 13:00:20 <mchua|xo>	tags are also the idea of tags is to be able to add searchable properties to objects that are not inside the objct
Oct 15 13:00:32 <mchua|xo>	what scott is proposing is a further refirnement
Oct 15 13:00:33 <mchua|xo>	of this
Oct 15 13:01:10 <mchua|xo>	gettys: imagine an entirely search-based interface
Oct 15 13:01:17 <mchua|xo>	i end up stop having to file
Oct 15 13:01:23 *	dsaxena_away is now known as dsaxena
Oct 15 13:01:27 <mchua|xo>	filing was an alien concept because you were so confident at beinga ble to find everything allthe time
Oct 15 13:01:37 <mchua|xo>	my observation was taht gags was the unusual thing that - when you had a todo list on every topic
Oct 15 13:01:41 <mchua|xo>	and you had to ask something where it was
Oct 15 13:01:44 <mchua|xo>	and it was still going to be obvious from the content
Oct 15 13:01:54 <mchua|xo>	(talking about use of gmail)
Oct 15 13:02:05 <cjb>	questions from cjb:
Oct 15 13:02:16 <mchua|xo>	joe: whos' gong to teach kdis how to use it? (I think that's what he's asking)
Oct 15 13:02:19 <mchua|xo>	scott: you don't have to
Oct 15 13:02:20 <cjb>	* everyone's talking about search for text, but not everything in the datastore is a text file
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Oct 15 13:02:41 <mchua|xo>	cjb+1
Oct 15 13:02:58 <mchua|xo>	(scott pulling up windows left and right on his machine!)
Oct 15 13:03:07 <cjb>	* Scott did a good job of convincing us that ordered tags aren't necessary, so I'm similarly unconvinced that they should be in the UI
Oct 15 13:03:14 <mchua|xo>	this is actually my journal - (on my computer)
Oct 15 13:03:17 <cjb>	(maybe a "filesystem activity" for that)
Oct 15 13:03:52 <cjb>	(Scott demoing new journal)
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Oct 15 13:06:25 <cjl>	ack, we lost mchua aka our trapscriptionbot!
Oct 15 13:06:51 <tomeu>	oh, I thought everybody got silent there ;)
Oct 15 13:07:06 <cjb>	using pinot for desktop search
Oct 15 13:07:10 *	aa has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Oct 15 13:07:11 <cjb>	pinot's gui is ugly
Oct 15 13:07:15 <cjb>	but the backend is nice
Oct 15 13:07:19 <cjb>	uses xapian for search
Oct 15 13:07:26 <cjb>	alternative OpenSearch backend
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Oct 15 13:07:31 <cjl>	thanks for picking up the slack cjb
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Oct 15 13:07:45 <cjb>	xapian probabilistic IR system
Oct 15 13:07:53 <cjb>	looks at context, relevance, scores
Oct 15 13:07:54 <mchua|xo>	(sorry guys, battery died)
Oct 15 13:08:00 <cjb>	works like Google does
Oct 15 13:08:05 <cjb>	does magic pagerank stuf
Oct 15 13:08:10 <mchua|xo>	wer'e nto using any of these extra features
Oct 15 13:08:14 <cjb>	.. but we're not actually using any of that
Oct 15 13:08:20 <cjb>	gmail doesn't use any of that
Oct 15 13:08:46 <mchua|xo>	so luckily, xapian also has a v efficient bool probablitstic serach... we're using the "under 4 feet tall" aspect of xapian
Oct 15 13:08:49 <mchua|xo>	not the ferrari aspect
Oct 15 13:08:59 <mchua|xo>	it does lets us find things sorted by time really fast
Oct 15 13:09:09 <mchua|xo>	most things when you say sort by time it will go through all the docs and then sort it
Oct 15 13:09:27 <mchua|xo>	so all the fancy ferrariness of xapain is right there
Oct 15 13:09:30 <mchua|xo>	(left sidebar)
Oct 15 13:09:38 <mchua|xo>	and these terms are relevant to these
Oct 15 13:09:50 <mchua|xo>	so it's nice that we have all this stuff under the hood bht altl ehf ancy features that give you better suggestions
Oct 15 13:10:00 <mchua|xo>	bht... blah blahb --> gets turned into
Oct 15 13:10:07 <mchua|xo>	so it's demo time
Oct 15 13:11:13 <mchua|xo>	scott: here are some questions i have
Oct 15 13:11:26 <mchua|xo>	(cjl, cjb - should find some way to ask your qeustions too)
Oct 15 13:11:48 <mchua|xo>	it should be easy to go back by deleting tags in your search
Oct 15 13:11:52 <mchua|xo>	i'm not cnovinced this is the right wya
Oct 15 13:12:03 <mchua|xo>	previews? i talked about a little - i'm not satisfied with the way preview sare displayed
Oct 15 13:12:42 <mchua|xo>	in gnome, nobody ever fills this (frequent-use) folder with useful stuff
Oct 15 13:12:57 <mchua|xo>	so if i have somethign thta gives me suggestions, i mgith want to have something here that lets me pin those in place
Oct 15 13:13:03 <mchua|xo>	so this mockup has stars beside tehse places
Oct 15 13:13:12 <mchua|xo>	what that does is that this stuff changes periodically but the starred thigns are ipnned down
Oct 15 13:13:41 <mchua|xo>	i'm not completely convinced w/ how this looks and feels yet
Oct 15 13:14:01 <mchua|xo>	gettys: interesign questions - are these (pins) for tags, or are they actually queries?
Oct 15 13:14:41 <mchua|xo>	so the query tags i've implemented are the same who waht where when that the ui shows and so what:pippy means what docs i imade in ppy
Oct 15 13:15:01 <mchua|xo>	or i can type something out and it will do a free text search
Oct 15 13:15:14 <mchua|xo>	so italked with some guys who were into semantics
Oct 15 13:15:32 <mchua|xo>	so if i searched for who:chris it might also suggest good extensins of my serach
Oct 15 13:15:56 <mchua|xo>	cavallo: i18n?
Oct 15 13:16:15 <mchua|xo>	scott: my plan is  to hunt down the people who have done this wt translation systems and nail them to the wall about it
Oct 15 13:16:35 <mchua|xo>	scott: if there's a complicated query you want o do you can reify the tags to do it
Oct 15 13:17:17 <mchua|xo>	cjb: ben talked about how tags arent very useful, how about images searching for images?
Oct 15 13:17:28 <mchua|xo>	scott: i put a picture as a draft... in berlin... that was a month ago...
Oct 15 13:17:44 <mchua|xo>	michael: consider 2o f the larger images - facebook - search of images of people, of faces
Oct 15 13:17:54 <mchua|xo>	scott: i'm going to put that in 'semantic magic'
Oct 15 13:18:03 <mchua|xo>	ben: also the most popular img seraches on the web are tagging
Oct 15 13:18:14 <mchua|xo>	cjb: when you compare to gmail, gmail si all text
Oct 15 13:18:21 <mchua|xo>	scott: that is true
Oct 15 13:18:55 <mchua|xo>	the way gmail works - for ex; when i realized gmail wasn't doing any relevant sorting at all, i thought it was magic but when i actually looked under the covers after 2-3 years I didn't realize this
Oct 15 13:19:20 <mchua|xo>	then when i looked at my google searches i also realized my searches were all really really short
Oct 15 13:19:25 <mchua|xo>	most people don't work like that
Oct 15 13:19:34 <mchua|xo>	if they are searching for X or Y, they just search for X Y
Oct 15 13:19:50 <mchua|xo>	gettys: i found i used tags less and less as time went on
Oct 15 13:20:08 <mchua|xo>	as i get more and more confident to search and be able to do siple queries, i just looked at name queries and remembering what that naemd queries had been
Oct 15 13:20:21 <mchua|xo>	scott: i think the suggestions engine is really powerful too
Oct 15 13:20:46 <mchua|xo>	egarrison: legacy apps?
Oct 15 13:20:51 <mchua|xo>	scott: they rock
Oct 15 13:21:24 <mchua|xo>	(opens sugar-emulator)
Oct 15 13:22:08 <mchua|xo>	(opens inkscape from terminal activity)
Oct 15 13:23:00 <mchua|xo>	most of the things are not really sugarized
Oct 15 13:23:13 <mchua|xo>	(points out buttons and the like)
Oct 15 13:23:25 <mchua|xo>	now pay no attention... the magic of LD_PRELOAD, scott's going to do something you should ignore...
Oct 15 13:23:33 <mchua|xo>	(reopens inskscape with magic ld_preload thing)
Oct 15 13:23:37 <mchua|xo>	hey look, it is the jouranl!
Oct 15 13:23:50 <mchua|xo>	(searches through jouranl with tags)
Oct 15 13:24:19 <mchua|xo>	this is the second lesson of the largo talk - there is no reason people can't embed the journal
Oct 15 13:24:23 <mchua|xo>	into their apps
Oct 15 13:24:33 <mchua|xo>	this is a compeltely sep process - jouranl in pythion, inkscape != python
Oct 15 13:24:56 <mchua|xo>	so you can search, journal makes the file you pick available to inkscape, and (away you go)
Oct 15 13:25:10 <mchua|xo>	you can also search for remote files as well
Oct 15 13:25:58 <mchua|xo>	another lesson from largo: people don't want to learn new things, if you can do it in the file browser you should be abel to do it in the open windwo because maybe you realize you need to make a new folder
Oct 15 13:26:37 <mchua|xo>	(starts iceweasel)
Oct 15 13:26:46 <mchua|xo>	this is a non ported version
Oct 15 13:26:52 <mchua|xo>	(brings up open dilaog)
Oct 15 13:26:56 <mchua|xo>	and it's the journal again!
Oct 15 13:27:17 <mchua|xo>	baically there is a nice abstract gtk interface for a file chooser
Oct 15 13:27:44 <mchua|xo>	and we basically sub out most of it for (magic bring up the journal stuff)
Oct 15 13:27:56 <mchua|xo>	the q before was how to make this work with existing things
Oct 15 13:28:04 <cjb>	journal dialog preloader is written in Vala
Oct 15 13:28:06 <mchua|xo>	in most cases we just want to show the journal
Oct 15 13:28:26 <mchua|xo>	scott: what if it deosnt' work? it's a dbus interface...
Oct 15 13:28:32 <mchua|xo>	(simultaneous conversations i'm missing)
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Oct 15 13:30:41 <mchua|xo>	(discussion outside the scope of this talk)
Oct 15 13:31:26 <mchua|xo>	scott: we want to avoid the user having to learn all these different interfaces - use the journal for everything.
Oct 15 13:32:06 <mchua|xo>	scott: let's save this discussion for later i need to get through the slides
Oct 15 13:32:08 <mchua|xo>	ok. so i love amazon
Oct 15 13:32:11 <mchua|xo>	or at least a9
Oct 15 13:32:24 <mchua|xo>	it's a really nice thing - it defines an open search interface and things can interoperate
Oct 15 13:32:29 <mchua|xo>	with their results on that
Oct 15 13:32:35 <mchua|xo>	so let's send... that's lal I need tos ay about that atm
Oct 15 13:32:56 <mchua|xo>	this is the fun part
Oct 15 13:33:09 <mchua|xo>	(scott starting things on his computer...)
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Oct 15 13:34:04 <mchua|xo>	so here is a search interrface, over htp
Oct 15 13:34:06 <mchua|xo>	http
Oct 15 13:34:16 <mchua|xo>	in theory this should only be the things i actually want to share with other people
Oct 15 13:34:21 <mchua|xo>	but the cool things about this... is that...
Oct 15 13:34:39 <mchua|xo>	I can add a search engine to my web browser, and search for things like... "puerto rico"
Oct 15 13:35:00 <mchua|xo>	(he's searching on a web interface done through a9)
Oct 15 13:36:46 <mchua|xo>	i can now make things that belong to my friends that look just like the journal entries that i have
Oct 15 13:36:57 <mchua|xo>	so I right clikc on chris, and i have this thing that says "look at his file"
Oct 15 13:37:05 <mchua|xo>	then i'll see the same journal interface
Oct 15 13:37:29 <mchua|xo>	if my friend does not have an xo they can subscribe to some sort of feed of my journal instead
Oct 15 13:38:21 <mchua|xo>	so if i want to use this as a blog, then i tag it with 'blog' and anyone in the world can subscribe to the (autogenerated) feed of my xo's blog...
Oct 15 13:38:54 <mchua|xo>	scott: network principles -t he tricy think is that i need a name so i can sub to an rss feed
Oct 15 13:39:08 <mchua|xo>	you cna see [[Network principles]] for more discussion
Oct 15 13:39:23 <mchua|xo>	--- end talk ---
Oct 15 13:39:33 <mchua|xo>	scott:what did i do wrong?
Oct 15 13:39:41 <mchua|xo>	ben: <3 the things you've done
Oct 15 13:39:51 <mchua|xo>	now they're in code form which is a huge leap
Oct 15 13:40:03 <mchua|xo>	have difficulty w/ notion of tags you're using
Oct 15 13:40:25 <mchua|xo>	when I work with tags I either end up with somethign that does not look like tags or does not look like a dir structure
Oct 15 13:40:37 <mchua|xo>	scott: the reason I made this mokcup is so I could use it - have experience with it
Oct 15 13:40:44 <mchua|xo>	i don't think it'll look like a dir structure
Oct 15 13:40:56 <mchua|xo>	i'm hoping that this is a continuing discusson on the use of it
Oct 15 13:41:29 <mchua|xo>	one thing is that there is an ambiguity around... (I missed this)
Oct 15 13:41:46 <mchua|xo>	ben: the other thing is that I see less value in the syntactic where-colon, what-colon searches
Oct 15 13:41:56 <mchua|xo>	talking w eben about what sort of syntax we were actually going to use for that
Oct 15 13:42:05 <mchua|xo>	i think that's more easy, valuable
Oct 15 13:42:17 <mchua|xo>	scott: i used the google terms bc many people were already using it
Oct 15 13:42:52 <mchua|xo>	typing in tags is mroe error prone than being able to select from a list of existing tags
Oct 15 13:46:06 *	adricnet (n=adric@adsl-145-97-192.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #olpc-meeting
Oct 15 13:47:09 <mchua|xo>	joe: suppose i have 2 machines, one an XO on sugar/linux, one ms windows
Oct 15 13:47:13 <mchua|xo>	i take a picture, i put file in stick
Oct 15 13:47:19 <mchua|xo>	i put stick in windows machine, save the file
Oct 15 13:47:31 <mchua|xo>	i put stick in xo, tag, also save it
Oct 15 13:47:37 <mchua|xo>	tiem passes, i forget
Oct 15 13:47:43 <mchua|xo>	now in both machines i want to find my file.
Oct 15 13:47:45 <mchua|xo>	what do i do?
Oct 15 13:48:01 <mchua|xo>	scott: that depends on a lot of the details - where i saved it, how much do i know about windows
Oct 15 13:48:26 <mchua|xo>	if i put it on my windows desktop, it'll still be there
Oct 15 13:48:35 <mchua|xo>	if tag it with 'photos' it'll still be tagged with photos
Oct 15 13:48:54 <mchua|xo>	eben: it won't tag the photos for you, you can tag w anything you want
Oct 15 13:49:03 <mchua|xo>	joe: so from the user's perspective, what is that?
Oct 15 13:49:14 <mchua|xo>	scott: so we have some magic information here... (searches for type:/jpeg)
Oct 15 13:49:24 <mchua|xo>	computer knows about metadata you might have about a jpeg file
Oct 15 13:50:37 <aa>	mchua|xo: thank so much for the transcript!
Oct 15 13:50:45 <aa>	cjb: you too
Oct 15 13:52:36 <mchua|xo>	aa: np!
Oct 15 13:53:11 <mchua|xo>	i'll post logs from my desktop when I get back there in ~10m
Oct 15 13:55:21 <mchua|xo>	too many simul. convos going on atm.. i'm going to stop recording