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xavi's proposals

I (Xavi) propose the following points:

  • how the current Translating framework works
    • (it's not cast in iron and may be perfected, so don't be shy about criticizing it!)
  • ideas on what is needed and how to make it available
    • both in terms of material in english and in each language
    • ideas on restructuring the wiki itself...
  • tools and resources
    • more or less templates?
    • standards and other 'cosmetic' things

Please feel free to add your own or comment on the above. --Xavi 00:00, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

An idea!

Priority Pages: We should have a list of the pages that needs to be translated as soon as possible.

BTW: how are we meeting? IRC? Nalrawahi 09:17, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Priorities is definitely a point—there's no point in translating that nobody reads. There's a Special:Popularpages that gives out the total quantity of views per page. It's a good first shot, but unfortunately that's a historical PoV... iow, a new 'hot' page worth translating will hardly show up in the ranking... so yes, we should find a way to set priorities.
Currently I'm using a trick that may help but could be considered disruptive in some ways. Any link appearing in a translated page (say [[SomePage]]) is simply 'translated' as [[SomePage/lang-es]]. Afterwards I create a REDIRECT page directly into the original page while tagging the fake translation page with Category:Missing translation. This way, I manage two things: (1) I can see how many links exist within the translated corpus to a specific fake translation exist—actually denoting some sort of 'chances' that someone will actually want to read that page translated. (2) If I ever decide to translate it, all the hooks are already in place (no need to backtrace all the references in the whole of the wiki and modify those in the translated pages.
Where? IRC for me is good.--Xavi 11:50, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
I don't know , is there a better way than IRC? Nalrawahi 17:50, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
There's always msn, icq, skype...
IRC Skype MSN Yahoo ICQ Jabber Wiki
Nalrawahi ok - ok - - - ok
RafaelOrtiz ok ok ok - - - ok
php5 - - ok - - - -
Ptdrumm - ok - - ok - -
Xavi ok ok ok ok ok mmm... slow

Shouldn't we have a common agenda in the first place? — Ptdrumm 19:00, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

I'm (php5) not familiar with others except MSN. How about a bulletin board like..hmmm....Zero Board?

I was proposing something along the lines I mentioned at the beginning...
Basically I think it'd be good if at least we are all on the same page on how to get things translated in the wiki. I've been 'patroling' the translations, not content-wise—which obviously I can't—but rather structure. And I think that at least there should be more people aware of how it works, either to make it better, change it, etc. but also to ensure that it's homogeneously used.
Another good thing about what we are doing is that we are having a general view of all the site and we may have ideas on how to restructure better the site (like, avoiding duplicate text and merging pages) and things like that that we should evaluate to make the whole wiki better...
Comments? --Xavi 20:51, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

To create a community of translators (in my case - Russian) around the wiki site it seems important to have a list of priorities. By now I am going to use a very simple strategy. We will try to localize everything which has already been translated in more than two languages (but still is missing Russian). The pages with most ready translations will be top priority. Rather a rule-of-a-thumb method, surely but I hope it will work unless anything more sound comes up. If the priorities issue is being discussed anywhere else, please let me know. - --Biarm 14:45, 24 November 2007 (EST)

deleting pages

It's a kind of nonsense, but, frankly, I can't find a method to delete a page....Wow.....editing numerous pages without even knowing how to delete one.

Could you let me know? ---php5

IIRC, deleting pages can only be done by a sysadmin... the closest you have is the {{delete}} with which you can tag the page for deletion that will either be accepted or rejected by the community and thus the sysadmins will effectively delete it or remove the tag. BTW, there's a specific {{deletere}} for REDIRECT pages. --Xavi 10:15, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

ptdrumm priorities

My topmost priority now is translate all pages linked to (already tanslated) 'The OLPC Wiki' page. This is about 15 pages, on my last count... Then, keep up with the dynamics. A lot to do before thinking in less linked or specific candidates. Paulo — Ptdrumm 22:36, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Any idea on how to 'start'?

If anybody sees this... or reads about it... please jot down your names (signature --~~~~ will suffice)... just to know who's around. I'll check in about 10min to give you time, and me to go buy cigarettes... ;) --Xavi 23:14, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Who's here?

  1. --Xavi 23:14, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
  2. Ptdrumm 23:19, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
  3. --user:php5 Deers, how to display time? and how to delete a page?
    to display userId plus date and time, use four tildes, like this ~~~~
or just hit the button (second from the right) when you edit... deletion? iirc, only sysadmins can...

another alternative communication method is old style email... ;)

  1. xavi PUNTO alvarez EN gmail PUNTO com — --Xavi 23:29, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
to be honest, dear Xavier, I think this could be THE place to start, once everyone can find each other. And my suggestion for a first discussion subject is your first suggestion: What are your priorities in translation?Ptdrumm 23:49, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
... and when I say "this", above, I mean here, at the discussion page. — Ptdrumm 23:51, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

xavi priorities

my personal wishlist:

  • an autonomous translating community
    • i've been patrolling too much, translating too little as of late
    • would be nice to have others that can tweak the odd mistake everybody can make and/or new volunteers will make (as we all have :)
  • have fun and learn while translating :)

my wiki wishlish:

  • double the translators into a wiki-reviewer community
    • there are many pages without substance but with an odd gem that should be merged/split
    • help restructure and catalog the information (helps further translations)
  • do this things in a sort of coordinate way
  • set some focus on what is needed to be translated, by area: developers, general public, educational, etc.
    • and make sure that we can point to a set of 'base pages' when a volunteer shows up (or we have time ;)

I'll stop here and then edit... so that you have something to read and comment on :) --Xavi 23:57, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

ptdrumm priorities

I'd like to:

  • translate all pages linked to the Main (The OLPC Wiki) page, and keep up with their dynamics;
  • translate some pages secondarily linked to the second level linked pages.
and what would you need? support? time? (we all need that ;) what about the structure? there's a lot of sub-page navigation and linking... do you feel comfortable doing it? or is too confusing? I've got my reasons on why the structure ended up like that, but as the developer, I can't be a real judge on its practical or reader aspects...
... so many questions...
support? no, i'm confortable so far.
confusing? no, i can manage (i guess)
time? i think i can deal with, one bit a day ;-)
Ptdrumm 00:17, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

tips & tricks

I've got some tips & tricks on the translation that may be worthwhile to share... some more important than others (ie: the version = parameter and how it helps everybody). So maybe I was just thinking to do a pseudo-demo on it... or how I work with the templates and such, after all I made them to fit my needs—which may not coincide with everybody else's...

section headers 
I've been doing (or trying to) keep the original headers unchanged but in a <div id="some header"></div> structure... preceding the translated header (which is irrelevant from the translation text) as it simplifies linking
link translation 
As I tried to document in Translating the /lang-xx page structure is particularly helpful for translating links to other pages:
 OLPC Human Interface Guidelines/The Laptop Experience/Zoom Metaphor#Home
 OLPC Human Interface Guidelines/The Laptop Experience/Zoom Metaphor/lang-es#Home
An interesting side effect of this link-translation, is that if a page hasn't been translated, you can always REDIRECT to the original. With the Special:Whatlinkshere/Autoreinstallation image/lang-es (or the specific REDIRECT) you can find out about how 'desperate' (or popular) a particular missing translation is...
currently I try to keep both the translated and original text in the same page (using the <font size="-1"><blockquote> enclosures) as this would allow any reviewer to check both the original and the translation at first sight. Afterwards you can either delete or <!-- comment it -->
yeah! this IS a job! Not for the original authors, I guess. --Ptdrumm 00:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
i guess you can always patrol your own writings... but a second eye is a must... --Xavi 00:46, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
yep! --Ptdrumm 01:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
the HIG 
that's a really big chunk of text, sub-pages, templates, and other things that should be done carefully (we wouldn't want it to be broken due to mistakes)
another big real stuff to do. already started by a anonymous samaritan ;-) It is on my watch list, but not of my topo priorities. All considered, my watchlist is growing... Anyway, what I wish to see? more contributors! --Ptdrumm 00:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
more contributors? or translators? ;) --Xavi 00:46, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
both; contributors for new real and useful topics in portuguese, and (of course) translators! --Ptdrumm 01:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
and why it's so 'important'... for using the diff link and keeping the translation upto date...

problems or issues

limit of the framework 
Php5 hit a problem (which I haven't had time to explore) when the Template:Translations was used with categories (something I hadn't thought about translating ;)
impact on categories 
we'll be translating a lot of stuff (look at the sub-categories of Category:Translated Pages) and all those pages are being 'dumped' onto the english categorization... is it good? or bad?


The next two, would require a deeper framework, something that goes against a low-barrier for new translators... I would hate to end up with a structure so complicated that only a few can handle the nitty-gritty details...

multi-lingual templates 
I had been thinking in added translations to the templates themselves... for example, currently the Template:Translation has literal text for {Translation of, original, diff}, I had been thinking about adding /translation_message/lang-xx, /original_message/lang-xx, and /diff_message/lang-xx to display them in each language accordingly.
template embedding 
a possible extension is to unify the templates used. Currently (or theoretically) we have Template:Ongoing Translation plus Template:Translation... how about a Template:Ongoing Translation that merges both... or a template for call for reviewers that categorizes them in a particular category.
fake translation redirects 
make a template that categorizes them by language (currently I'm the only one using them—only /lang-es in the Category:Missing translation... but if others start using them, then we should probably split that category by language (akin to Category:Translated Pages.

what else... let me think... :)

category translation 
I think the category itself can be translated. Otherwise, in a few days, all categories will be full of local versions of a page, e.g. hardware design, hardware design/lang-ko, hardware design/lang-de, hardware design/lang-..........

Why add tens of /lang-xx pages into a category rather than putting JUST ONE [translation] at the top of a category?

I put all lang-ko pages of the Common questions category into common questions/lang-ko category. If I didn't, the common questions category may be already full of lang/ko pages. I think it's a kind of real problem to solve now....

page statistics

I've extracte some 'meta' information about the source pages (ie: how popular they are, how many pages actually reference it, and how many editions they have)—you can find it Translated pages.

With this information we can better gauge and prioritize our translating efforts (and future maintenance of them) and focuse on what the community needs or reads/works on. Take a look and let's discuss about it. --Xavi 12:04, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Hello Xavi, what do you think about all pages in this wiki having translation template as a default. Because I'm not familiar to Wikipedia etc., I don't know how those large sites manage localization works. Does all pages have translation template or similar? --php5 php5 12:32, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
Actually a bad idea. We don't want to translate everything! Just those things that are worthwhile translating or make sense for the recipient language/culture. Some things are highly technical and if you can't deal with technical english, there's no real point in translating it—it would probably make things worse. Also, we want to encourage local community participation... kids are not the only target of this project, we need their communities! And if we just 'feed' them whatever comes from the english-speaking community they will never learn—and if this project is going to get anywhere, the local communities have to appropriate it and make it their own... constant 'feeding' of the english diluted and mis-translated things will just numb their curiosity and thirst for knowledge: they'll just sit back and wait for it to happen from the outside... not a pleasant outcome and the typical error/mistake of so many humanitarian projects: failing to incentivate the local communities to take charge of their own future.--Xavi 14:45, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

multi-lingual templates

Honestly, this is a sort of feature we want to avoid... but... :)

Have you noticed that in the Template:Translation the text is all in english? I had been thinking about a way to make it multi-lingual but I would need some strings in each language:

The table has been moved to Translating#multi-lingual navigation templates
I got that, Xavi. I put "human preferable" above on purpose, just to trigger this discussion. Frankly, I'm not pleased with ANY automated translation. Google or anything else. Call me old-fashioned, but results from these 'AI' generated texts are usually bad, and for long ones are abysmal, to say the least. And I'm afraid such things (like the auto-correct feature in most text editors), are becoming a 'norm' these days...
In cases like this, if you're not aware of the newly translated string, and do nothing for any reason, it could be (correct or not) accepted by the general public as is. And that, again imho, is very bad. My 2¢... --Ptdrumm 12:50, 22 April 2007 (EDT)
I see your point, and I agree. The point was to make obvious that via Google meant that the choice of translated terms could really be off-base! So they needed to be human reviewed! :) As for AI translations, I'm not that picky, I know they're bad, but usually I'm just interested in getting the idea, not so much the details—but in this case, being single-words or specific terms, I prefer (actually, want) human supervised terms :) --Xavi 14:36, 22 April 2007 (EDT)
Ok, Xavi! Mutually agreed, and I changed the slot. I use to say that dialectic stimulate synapses ;-) Just for for some laugh, see the english translation for OLPC Brazil. Lotta work! cheers, Paulo (Ptdrumm 19:45, 22 April 2007 (EDT))

If someone could provide/verify the above, I will gladly set it up :) --Xavi 17:53, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

juliano's priorities

My top priority is to translate the HIG to Portuguese. --Juliano 00:07, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Then may I suggest you take a look at Translating#translating_the_HIG and Translated pages#translating the HIG? If you have any questions, please let us know :) --Xavi 02:46, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

A suggestion

During translation, I have been encountered many out-of-date contents. As not being quite sure whether those contents are really out of date or not, let's have a page to collect <Seeming Out Of Date Sections (or pages)> for professionals of each field to review them. Is just two sections (hardware and software) enough? here is my classification. sincerely to allphp5 17:32, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

I agree, there's quite a bit of 'stale' content that is not obviously tagged as such—sometimes it's s tiny detail, others the whole page. There's the Template:Dated already available... but it's a bit blunt.
Either way, I don't think that a special translator-section-for-translated-outdated-material should be sought... as the wiki itself suffers from the problem. So I wouldn't want to have another structure that needs special care (better to profit from whatever the wiki will use ;) Now we just need to use / enforce it... ;) --Xavi 19:35, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

Auto-translation of articles?

For the many article/language pairs which have not been hand translated, and to make non-en articles available in en, is there a role for automatic translation? MitchellNCharity 01:32, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Google provides automated translation (eg, ).

  • One might edit the site-wide style file to include a universal light-blue line with automated translations (like the current dark blue hand translation line).
    Counter argument - This isn't worth doing because non-en speakers are so used to using google to translate en webpages that giving them a link provides little help.
    How to - perhaps the objective is:
    template-thingy-for-whole-site: ...<make light blue line containing>Automated translations: <a href="{current_article_url}">fr</a>...
    So maybe there is a locked down template-ish page on the wiki somewhere. a next step might be to bounce around the wikipedia docs figuring out the line and where it goes, and then suggest someone with wheel bits edit the appropriate page. But is it really worth doing?
  • One might create a template for inclusion in non-en pages which links to a google en translation, and perhaps also to other languages. This is the use case I've actually encountered.
    If a template can know the url of the article in which it is being used, this might be relatively easy to do.
    Counter argument - Once you get into google translation, clicking on links gives you translated pages. So you only need a few translation links at key "entry" pages. So it's not worth doing a template to get links to google everywhere. But are there really just a few entry pages?

[[Template:Sandbox2]] Template:Google Translate has, for the moment, a google translation template. Perhaps one might call it from a lang-pt or somesuch template? which could be put in, for example, Game_Jam_Brazil, so en-speakers could easily read it? Or perhaps better, have something on the wiki sidebar? es->en, pt->en, others? en->...list of everything google knows...? MitchellNCharity 01:06, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

I moved the Sandbox2 template into a full-blown Template:Google Translate whose purpose is basically the same (making a non-english page available in english). On the other hand, there's also Template:Google Translations that is intended to provide an english page in several (Google supported) languages (10 in total). Still don't know how to integrate them better into the wiki though... ideas? --Xavi 10:23, 27 May 2007 (EDT)